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[YellowBirdFlyer]

Deleted

 

Edited May 11, 2017 by TJS

[Cruiser]

I think you pretty much have it. I am not sure about the clock/timer. I think one is required for IFR flight. The electric AI will require its own STC. (not included on the Aspen STC) and a backup AI is still required for the Aspen's.

Sounds like a high performance panel.

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

1- DON'T remove the autopilot.  A working autopilot is better than no autopilot in most cases and if you ever decide to sell it would be something most potential pilots would be looking for.

2- Consider the JPI EDM 900 vice the 930.  It’s a newer version, doesnt cost as much and doesn’t take up quite as much panel space.

Other then that I think your on the right path

 

Aspen was supposed to be getting approval for their Evolution 2000 system to run w/o the need for a separate dedicated AI.  Not sure what’s happening with that right now?

 

[Cruiser]

Quote: MooneyPilot

Cruiser:

Are you saying that the electric AI cannot serve as the backup AI to the Aspens?

[danb35]

Quote: Cruiser

You must get an STC approval for the electric AI you want to install. Be sure it is available.

[KSMooniac]

There are regs concerning the "power source" for the various instruments required for IFR flight.  For example, having the traditional vacuum-powered AI combined with an electric TC provides a level of redundancy.  The limitations on what can be used with the Aspens or G500 are to preserve such redundancy, and I believe you can use an electric AI and thus remove your vacuum system IF the electric AI has it's own dedicated battery backup.  You'll have to talk with Aspen or an avionics shop to get all of the details about what can be approved.  (or perhaps Peter L will chime in)

All that aside, I agree about leaving a functioning autopilot, even if you don't use it.  If you're set on removing it, you might consider making provisions for the Avidyne DFC90 (to work well with Aspen) when they are available for Mooneys.  I like what you already did, and especially like the direction your heading.  I too would sub the EDM-900 vs. the -930 for space reasons and ditch all the OEM engine instruments.

I can't see the Davtron clock clearly in your pic.  If it is the 811, there is selectable brightness with a toggle switch that works great for me, day or night.  If it doesn't work, perhaps it needs service.  It is a very nice unit IMO, so I would keep it.

A question... how did you color your console below the panel?  I love the lighter color compared to the original black!  

[Cruiser]

Quote: danb35

Leaving the Aspen out of the picture, do I need an STC to replace my existing AI with a different model vacuum unit?  How about an electric unit?  If not (and I've never seen any indication that I do), why would adding an Aspen or two change the approval needed for the separate AI?

[KSMooniac]

 

That is beautiful, and I'm glad you posted the pics!  I'm scheming about a panel makeover on my J this fall/winter-ish even though all I want to do is replace my EDM-700 with a -900 (I think).  Succumbing to a bad case of "while I'm in there...." I'm planning to make all new panels, remove the OEM engine instruments, add a provision to the left side panel for a removable 6-pack "insert" so that I can simply modify that for a flush-mount Aspen or other PFD at some point in the future.  I also want to move my 430W and 330ES from the right side to the center stack and put my 496 in a dock on the right side.

Since that won't be difficult enough, I *really* want to upgrade my console as well by replacing the damned throttle quadrant with conventional engine controls (like yours) and refinish the entire thing in a tan/beige color to match my interior (and new panel) much like yours.  Too bad yours is lighter than mine, otherwise I'd come steal it!    I have not seen a legacy black console refinished/modernized yet and I'm glad it has been done.  If you have any idea what kind of paint or product Hector used, I'd appreciate that info.  If not, I'll just call him when the time comes and hopefully he will share.  (He did my yokes years ago)

This whole project won't be too expensive since I'm only upgrading the engine monitor, but it will require a lot of hours to do it all.  I love the lighter color panels, and doing the same to the console really brightens the whole cockpit.

 

[danb35]

Quote: Cruiser

 Yes, the AI is required equipment and cannot be replaced with anything other than an approved make and model per the OEM certification.

[KSMooniac]

I've got this backup gyro that came with my plane:  http://www.lifesavergyro.com/lifesaver-gyro/#specifications

Here are some pertinent extracts from their FAQ:

"The Lifesaver is certified as either a primary or backup attitude indicator. It can be placed in the pilot's or co-pilot's instrument panel, or used in both positions. For more information, please see AC20.41 which addresses installing a TSO'd instrument with a TSO'd replacement.

The Lifesaver is approved under FAA TSO-C4c. So, if you install the unit in place of another TSO C4c unit -- where there are no changes to the form, fit, or function in the aircraft -- you are not required to notify the FAA (see FAA AC20-41A). However, if there are other changes required in the aircraft or if the aircraft is operated for commercial operations, the local FAA may require a FAA 337 and/or a Field Approval. Check with your local FAA before installation for their requirements."

Now, I believe there are differences in the blanket STCs that were issued between Aspen and Garmin in that each one has different requirements for the backup AI.  I don't plan to install soon, so I haven't researched this fully, but I *thought* I would be legal to remove my vacuum system if/when I install and Aspen by retaining my LIfesaver Gyro with the extra battery.  

[KSMooniac]

Jim, thanks in advance for checking with Hector.  I'm aware of the difficulty keeping the lighter color clean.  My tan carpet gets pretty filthy no matter how careful I am.  You might consider masking the carpet and sidewalls with butcher paper before handing the plane over to a shop, or ask them to wear booties on their feet.  (our production guys here at Learjet have to wear booties and remove stuff from pockets when working inside completed planes)

[Cruiser]

All Mooneys are approved under Aircraft Specification No. 2A3 at current revision 48 dtd July 23, 2007.

Within the specification see:

Section 401. FAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual

This section makes the ACFM part of the certification. For your M20F, manuals are listed by serial number. Look in your manual under the Limitations section. Everything listed there is required to maintain the aircraft airworthness. IF there is no attitude indicator listed you are good to go without one. My bet is you will find it listed.

so........ is any attitude indicator good enough to meet the requirement?

.............depends...........

what if the part is certifed to TSO.....? a technical standard order (TSO) only means the part was made to a specific standard.

Lots of parts are made to a TSO. Aircraft Tires are approved under the FAA's Technical Standard Order system (TSO) TSO-C62d does that mean you can put a Goodyear 8.50-10 8 ply Flight Custom III Tire on your plane? Of course not.

So a TSO only means the part is made to a specification, it does not mean it is applicable to your aircraft.

So how do we get parts on our specific aircraft? We get originals from the OEM or..... if we want to replace an original part with a different one (even if it is made to a TSO) we must determine that this modification will continue to meet the prescribed original airworthiness standards.

we get a STC, a supplemental type certificate.

There are two classifications to STCs. Minor and Major. (edit: this is technically incorrect. There are two classifications of type design changes. Minor and Major)

A minor change has no appreciable effect on the weight, balance, structural strength, reliability, operational characteristics, or other characteristics affecting the airworthiness of the product. Minor changes to type design may be approved under a method acceptable to the Administrator. The most common method of this approval has been the AP/IA signature on the return to service record in your aircraft logbook. (edit: an STC is not required)

These are nearly impossible to get today.

An STC is the FAA’s approval of a major change in the type design of a previously type certificated product. Field approvals, those initiated by your local maintenance shop not the part manufacturer. In other words the manufacturer did not bother to get an STC from the FAA because it was too difficult/expensive to do. The manufacturer is relying on the installer to determine the airworthiness. Commonly called a form 337. Signed by an FAA authorized individual.

These are nearly impossible to get these days.

[Bennett]

I replaced my turn coordinator with the Lifesaver electric AI with inclinometer and back-up battery.  I don't recall that a 337 form was issued for this, but I will be glad to check my records if anyone is concerned.  The shop who did that work is VERY particular about STCs, 337 forms, and log book entries, and they didn't seem to have any problem with this switch.  I think it is a great idea, although expensive.

[sreid]

Jim Y,

Get rid of the autopilot. I feel the same way, it's just not something you need in a 160 kt airplane. It just adds weight, admittedly not that much, and expense to maintain.  Look at all of the posts on here of guys spending big bucks to repair computers and servos. 

Steve

[danb35]

Quote: Cruiser

This section makes the ACFM part of the certification. For your M20F, manuals are listed by serial number. Look in your manual under the Limitations section. Everything listed there is required to maintain the aircraft airworthness. IF there is no attitude indicator listed you are good to go without one. My bet is you will find it listed.

[Cruiser]

Quote: danb35

You would lose that bet--in fact, there are no equipment requirements in the limitations section of my Owner's Manual (I just checked).  For that matter, I doubt it's required equipment in your J.  After all, there's no reason it would need to be--a plane is perfectly legal for day VFR without an AI, so why would Mooney require one?  They certainly could have done so, but I don't see any reason that they would have.

Your POH does not list a max engine speed (RPM)?

Cylinder Head temp? Oil temp? Oil pressure? Fuel pressure?

My POH does in fact require an artificial horizon.

Your tire example actually supports my position.  The TCDS gives mandatory specs for tires (for my plane, the mains are 6.00x6, 6 ply rating, IIRC).  I can install any tire I want that meets those specs.  It doesn't have to come from Mooney, be approved by Mooney, or be listed in Mooney's book.  It doesn't need an STC or a field approval.  It just needs to conform to the specs identified in the TCDS.

Apples to Organes. Tires come is all sizes and specs but are approved to the same TSO just like AIs come in different sizes and specs but are approved to the same TSO. You are citing replacement of the same size and spec. not just to the TSO.

Your discussion of STCs is significantly incorrect.  All STCs are, per se, major alterations to the aircraft, and therefore require that a 337 be completed (a 337 must be completed for all major alterations, and for all major repairs performed by anyone other than a certified repair station).  There is, therefore, no such thing as a "minor STC".  A minor alteration does not require an STC; it need only be performed IAW "acceptable data" (as opposed to "approved data"), and may be approved for return to service by any A&P.  And it simply is not the case that replacing any part on an aircraft with a different part requires an STC.

You are correct. I misspoke. There are minor and major type design changes. Minor ones can be approved by an AP/IA as both you and I state. Major changes require an STC.

[danb35]

Quote: Cruiser

Your POH does not list a max engine speed (RPM)?

Cylinder Head temp? Oil temp? Oil pressure? Fuel pressure?

My POH does in fact require an artificial horizon.

[snip]

Apples to Organes. Tires come is all sizes and specs but are approved to the same TSO just like AIs come in different sizes and specs but are approved to the same TSO. You are citing replacement of the same size and spec. not just to the TSO.

[M20F-1968]

I believe the type certificate may have a list of minimal equipment.

John Breda

[Cruiser]

Quote: MooneyPilot

Cruiser:

Even though your J is six years newer than mine, I would think that our POH’s would be similar.  In the Limitations Section of my POH (Section II), I do have a subsection entitled “Power Plant Instrument Markings” that incorporates your examples of max RPM, CHT, oil temp, oil pressure and fuel pressure.  I do not have any subsection, however, that deals with equipment requirements.  I do have a subsection entitled “Other Instruments and Markings”, which only states the following.

“The following equipment is vacuum operated:

Artificial horizon

Directional gyro”

If I may inquire, what is your interpretation of the implications of this subsection?  Since I have no subsection that deals with the listing of required equipment, what is your opinion as to the removal of my  original EGT/OAT gauge, which is a redundant gauge on my panel?

[Cris]

<p>Jim Y,</p>

<p>Get rid of the autopilot. I feel the same way, it's just not something you need in a 160 kt airplane. It just adds weight, admittedly not that much, and expense to maintain.  Look at all of the posts on here of guys spending big bucks to repair computers and servos. </p>

<p>Steve</p>

To me the autopilot is a go/no go item for an IFR flight. In the early days of Mooney every A/C was equipped with a Britain wing leveler similar to the basic Century system. This is due to the fact that a Mooney will tend to drop a wing depending on left/right fuel load. It was there for SAFETY. Admittedly I don't think I have ever flown more than a couple of actual IFR coupled approaches but I use it quite a bit at altitude on my long IFR flights and with all the info overload with our systems today I for one consider it critical to the mission. To the OP Keep it or upgrade it for the following reasons:

1: Passengers especially non pilots feel better if they know they can turn it on in the case the pilot is incapacitated. I make it a point to teach this to my family and friends...Just in case.

2: If you fly less you may find it gives you a bit of time to get ahead of the A/C even though you are quite competent now.

3: Anyone buying the A/C is going to expect a working autopilot. Just check Vref for proof on minimum equipment required on a high performance A/C. Your resale will suffer if it is removed.

One last comment is when my son,the Navy pilot transitioned to the Mooney last year he commented that he did not see how one could fly a Mooney like ours without an Autopilot and he typically did not use one, Today we have NEXRAD, GPS inputs, constant route changes, LOP ops etc, etc. Way to much heads down for my tastes. The autopilot is a real piece of safety equipment.

[steelerp]

Regards the interior work, Hector did mine....go take a look at the magic he can work via my albums. I did the PFD, then the interior...then, decided I just had to have the MFD (which I'm glad I got) and used Crystal Avionics in New Braunfels. John and Hector have a great relationship.

I paid Hector $ to remove all the interior that John wanted out and the guys removed their shoes and cover everything that didn't come out. End result.....got the airplane back and no damage to the interior. Highly recommend both Crystal and Hector.

I also just have the wings leveler and don't want (or need) an autopilot. And I'm very comfortable flying IFR/IMC. Regards what can come out with the Aspen installation, any avionics shop has all the rules about what can/ cannot be removed. There is a backp-battery option you can purchase above and beyond what is in the Aspen that allows you (according to the shop that sold me mine) that allows for you to remove more stuff. But......ask a shop. Rick