Lax291 Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 Had a few upgrades quoted with the local avionics shop recently, one of them being an upgrade from my KMA 24 to a PS Engineering PMA 450C. This is a 1990 M20J model and radio picture is below. They came back with about 33hrs of labor for the install. This struck me as high but what the heck do I know. Any people go through the same upgrade or have a good idea of time needed for it? Is there new wiring from mono to stereo for all the jacks and is that the large time component?
toto Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 Yes, if the jacks are all mono now, then they have to run new wires to all the jacks, which requires pulling interior etc. I put a new audio panel in my J during panel makeover #1, and running the new wires was the most painful part of the project for the shop. 1
McMooney Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 i did mine, went from a kma20 to pma8000g, didn't spend 33 hours but it was def costly. they ran all new stereo jacks to 4 seats, disconnected and reconnected all the avionics, basically tore the inside of the plane apart. think i paid like 2k to 3k for the install. If tight on money, i'm not sure the audio panel is the best place to start, yes it sounds slightly better and i have bigger buttons but it still serves the exact same purpose. I do have bluetooth to everything so that's a plus. still, not sure it was really all that of an upgrade. to be clear the audio panel is AWESOME, just wasn't the biggest bang for the buck, for me. also, stero only really matters when i'm listening to music or when using the hrtf function, whis is really nice. don't they have a pma7000 that's a drop in replacement for the kma24? 1
PT20J Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 I once installed a four place intercom in a M20J and it took a lot longer than I expected. The audio panel is an intercom + switched and unswitched connections to everything with audio. So, I wouldn’t think the estimate is unrealistic. Be aware that all the shops pay the same for the avionics, so the only variable is the labor, and you can bet that the low bidder is taking shortcuts that may bite you later. 2
LANCECASPER Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 2 hours ago, Lax291 said: Had a few upgrades quoted with the local avionics shop recently, one of them being an upgrade from my KMA 24 to a PS Engineering PMA 450C. This is a 1990 M20J model and radio picture is below. They came back with about 33hrs of labor for the install. This struck me as high but what the heck do I know. Any people go through the same upgrade or have a good idea of time needed for it? Is there new wiring from mono to stereo for all the jacks and is that the large time component? The quotes I've seen have been as high as 40 hours for an audio panel, but always over 30. It touches everything in your panel and is extremely time-consuming. That being said, having someone that does this every day doing it will be well worth it. This is also why it's not good to do a panel one thing at at time. Doing it all at once is expensive but not nearly expensive as doing it piecemeal. - - On another note, what is the Garmin box to the far right just under your ADF box? It almost looks like a remote transponder. Surely they wouldn't have wasted space on the panel for a remote transponder, completely defeating the purpose of a remote transponder? 1
0TreeLemur Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 When I upgraded audio panel in my C, I worked out a deal with the installer where I pulled the wiring and installed the stereo jacks myself. That saved a lot of shop time. It wasn't hard. Just required patience. If you know how to remove/reinstall the interior in your plane it is not a big deal. 2
Slick Nick Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 It’s because you have a KMA-24. Not a KMA-24H. The H model has an intercom built in. Since yours is separate, there is a lot more wiring involved. Is there something wrong with it that it needs to be replaced? Your money will be much better spent elsewhere. 1
Lax291 Posted February 6 Author Report Posted February 6 9 hours ago, McMooney said: i did mine, went from a kma20 to pma8000g, didn't spend 33 hours but it was def costly. they ran all new stereo jacks to 4 seats, disconnected and reconnected all the avionics, basically tore the inside of the plane apart. think i paid like 2k to 3k for the install. If tight on money, i'm not sure the audio panel is the best place to start, yes it sounds slightly better and i have bigger buttons but it still serves the exact same purpose. I do have bluetooth to everything so that's a plus. still, not sure it was really all that of an upgrade. to be clear the audio panel is AWESOME, just wasn't the biggest bang for the buck, for me. also, stero only really matters when i'm listening to music or when using the hrtf function, whis is really nice. don't they have a pma7000 that's a drop in replacement for the kma24? Thanks for the info. I had budgeted about $5K for install and hardware, and that was based on a quote from ~ 3 years ago where labor was $2,600 alone. Now the labor is coming in just under $5K. Both prices were from the same shop. I did look at the PMA7000 which would be a great jump from my existing unit, but then the question becomes do I stick with mono to save on install cost? If stereo is the way to go then maybe I just wait until the budget meets the job price and buy once cry once. One of the thoughts I have been having is that are multiple bluetooth connections to the panel really necessary/useful anymore? I think this as the new Lightspeed headset can connect to 2 bluetooth devices. I didn't mention this, but my current unit is working fine, although the clarity of audio is not ideal. I find myself concentrating very hard on some communications to make sure I make out what they are saying. I have an ANR headset so I was thinking a new unit will increase the clarity.
Lax291 Posted February 6 Author Report Posted February 6 8 hours ago, PT20J said: I once installed a four place intercom in a M20J and it took a lot longer than I expected. The audio panel is an intercom + switched and unswitched connections to everything with audio. So, I wouldn’t think the estimate is unrealistic. Be aware that all the shops pay the same for the avionics, so the only variable is the labor, and you can bet that the low bidder is taking shortcuts that may bite you later. Great advice, thank you. I tend to have no problem paying more for better quality and have seen that sometimes things are cheap...because they're cheap (poor quality, install, QC etc...). I'm a big buy once cry once when the budget allows. If it doesn't fit within the budget, I guess I have to wait until the budget increases! And by budget I mean my wife's approval to spend more...
Lax291 Posted February 6 Author Report Posted February 6 7 hours ago, LANCECASPER said: The quotes I've seen have been as high as 40 hours for an audio panel, but always over 30. It touches everything in your panel and is extremely time-consuming. That being said, having someone that does this every day doing it will be well worth it. This is also why it's not good to do a panel one thing at at time. Doing it all at once is expensive but not nearly expensive as doing it piecemeal. - - On another note, what is the Garmin box to the far right just under your ADF box? It almost looks like a remote transponder. Surely they wouldn't have wasted space on the panel for a remote transponder, completely defeating the purpose of a remote transponder? I believe that is exactly what it is. In my defense, it came that way when I purchased the plane! Maybe when I'm ready for a larger panel upgrade we can get that moved to the tail and free up some space. 1
Lax291 Posted February 6 Author Report Posted February 6 7 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said: When I upgraded audio panel in my C, I worked out a deal with the installer where I pulled the wiring and installed the stereo jacks myself. That saved a lot of shop time. It wasn't hard. Just required patience. If you know how to remove/reinstall the interior in your plane it is not a big deal. I would love to do this, not only to drive down cost, but to learn more about the plane. Unfortunately, when I broached this subject with the shop about an owner-assisted annual they said they don't do that for liability purposes.
Lax291 Posted February 6 Author Report Posted February 6 6 hours ago, Slick Nick said: It’s because you have a KMA-24. Not a KMA-24H. The H model has an intercom built in. Since yours is separate, there is a lot more wiring involved. Is there something wrong with it that it needs to be replaced? Your money will be much better spent elsewhere. Just some poor audio quality, sometimes catch 80% of an incoming transmission and would like to get clearer audio. I am alternatively looking to just upgrade the JPI EDM700 to a 730 which is well within budget!
PT20J Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 2 hours ago, Lax291 said: Just some poor audio quality, sometimes catch 80% of an incoming transmission and would like to get clearer audio. I am alternatively looking to just upgrade the JPI EDM700 to a 730 which is well within budget! Are you sure the audio quality issue is due to the audio panel? Is the problem on one radio or all audio inputs. Is the audio quality poor on both the headset and the cabin speaker? If you pull the circuit breakers for the KMA 24 (I believe there are two) it should connect the headset directly to com 1 eliminating the audio panel circuitry. Also some installations have emergency phone and mic jacks on the pedestal and the headset jack connects directly to com 1 bypassing the audio panel entirely. 1
Slick Nick Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 What skip said. You aren’t sure if the audio quality is due to the audio panel itself. How’s the intercom? That KMA24 is basically bomb proof, failures are not common. Could also be as simple as a corroded ground somewhere. 1
Lax291 Posted February 7 Author Report Posted February 7 22 hours ago, Slick Nick said: What skip said. You aren’t sure if the audio quality is due to the audio panel itself. How’s the intercom? That KMA24 is basically bomb proof, failures are not common. Could also be as simple as a corroded ground somewhere. Will do some testing to see if it can be attributed to the panel or not. The intercom is crystal clear, no issues with that.
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