FF DYNAMIC PROCEDURES

[PeteMc]

1 hour ago, toto said:

Garmin now has their own chart presentation, which does not use the NOS or Jepp format. 

Okay, but isn't that their MAP presentation of the Approach?  Or is it really a separate presentation like going to the Approach Plate like you used to do?  I thought the Approach "Plate" still existed in G Pilot as it does in ForeFlight and it is still either Jepp or Gov.

So...  You're really talking about G Pilots "SmartChart" and not that Garmin has created their own "Plate."  (And I only went through some of  the early release info on SmartCharts, so I could have missed that they are playing with definitions.)

 

[Rick Junkin]

51 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

So...  You're really talking about G Pilots "SmartChart" and not that Garmin has created their own "Plate." 

 

Actually the Garmin SmartChart IAP IS their own "plate", complete with geo-referencing in both the plan view and in the profile view. It is not a map overlay. It is a replacement for the NOS and Jepp plates, tailored to show only the information needed for the specific approach and your airplane and equipment capabilities as you've defined them in Garmin Pilot. 

[toto]

52 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

Okay, but isn't that their MAP presentation of the Approach?  Or is it really a separate presentation like going to the Approach Plate like you used to do?  I thought the Approach "Plate" still existed in G Pilot as it does in ForeFlight and it is still either Jepp or Gov.

So...  You're really talking about G Pilots "SmartChart" and not that Garmin has created their own "Plate."  (And I only went through some of  the early release info on SmartCharts, so I could have missed that they are playing with definitions.)

 

The Garmin SmartChart is a full replacement for the NOS or Jepp chart. There is no underlying “official” chart or plate - you just use the Garmin presentation and nothing else. 

[Jackk]

11 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

How do you verify that the information on a Jepp or FAA chart is correct and in date? For that matter, how do you know that the traditional chart you look at on your EFB is correct and in date? That marginal notation? It's electronically added to the chart by both foreflight and Garmin pilot. That's why updates are so fast. The only traditional charts that get updated in either app or those which have a change. Otherwise it's the same  old chart as the last time the source document got updated, which might have been years ago. with the new marginal date added digitally. In fact for a while, Garmin pilot didn't even have the dates. But I think was user feedback that got them to add it later.

We're sort of at different points of view. You see a chart and some unknown digital presentation. I see a traditional chart and a digital chart. Do you think that Jepp and the FAA charting office have a regulatory monopoly? You won't find that anywhere. The only reason "Joe's Basement Charting Service" isn't accepted is that we don't trust Joe. I trust Garmin as much as I trust Jeppesen and the FAA charting office  to take the regulatory source documents and translate them into a chart. And it's not as though Jepp and the FAA charting office never made mistakes.

I won't argue your preference. But I will say, that it is only a preference.

By the way, I do the same as you. I always verify the sequence of waypoints in the box with the chart, whichever type of chart I happen to be using.

 

 Plate number and effective date on the side of the plate. 

[PT20J]

You can hide the plate and everything  you need to shoot the approach is on the map and profile view. If you don’t like the sidebar, you can hide it, too. It makes for a seamless transition from the enroute segment to the approach. 

[donkaye, MCFI]

18 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

 As recently as three months ago, I was looking for a good way to add Jepp charts to GP. Mostly because if the georeferenced SIDs and STARs.  No longer needed. The SmartCharts do those just fine. Better IMO.

 

 

I guess I don't get that.  I've had Jepp Charts on my iPad for years.

Regarding Smart Charts: I used to have the approach plate on the iPad as a backup, and used the Aera 760 (or latest Garmin handheld) on the yoke as my primary chart source.  No more.  Smart Charts are so good that while I still use the 760 as my georeferenced approach plate track up as primary, the iPad stays on my lap as primary for briefing and getting critical information FAST.  I looked at Forelight's Dynamic Charts.  Watched the video.  Played around with it some.  Certainly not extensively, so didn't get good with them.  In a few words, I won't be using them.

[PeteMc]

@Rick Junkin @toto  I'll have to look at the latest G Pilot videos.  The one I watched when they first releast their SmartCharts did not indicate they were creating their own plate.  Just that they had a Route layout and side windows that had the other textural information from the Plate.  

 

[midlifeflyer]

15 hours ago, PeteMc said:

I'm a little confused on your terminology, but then I don't use G Pilot. 

Unlike FF, which has given us an enhanced briefing and monitoring tool, Garmin has created a set of original digital approach, SID, and STAR charts based on the original regulatory 8260s. Garmin actually says in its training videos that they are legal replacements for the traditional charts (designed from the same source documents by the FAA charting office and Jepp). Where FF tells us we need to verify the information with the traditional chart, Garmin does not.

[midlifeflyer]

5 hours ago, PeteMc said:

@Rick Junkin @toto  I'll have to look at the latest G Pilot videos.  The one I watched when they first releast their SmartCharts did not indicate they were creating their own plate.  Just that they had a Route layout and side windows that had the other textural information from the Plate.  

 

you are literally describing ForeFlight’s offering. Go through this short video to see what Garmin did.

 

[midlifeflyer]

6 hours ago, donkaye, MCFI said:

I guess I don't get that.  I've had Jepp Charts on my iPad for years.

Regarding Smart Charts: I used to have the approach plate on the iPad as a backup, and used the Aera 760 (or latest Garmin handheld) on the yoke as my primary chart source.  No more.  Smart Charts are so good that while I still use the 760 as my georeferenced approach plate track up as primary, the iPad stays on my lap as primary for briefing and getting critical information FAST.  I looked at Forelight's Dynamic Charts.  Watched the video.  Played around with it some.  Certainly not extensively, so didn't get good with them.  In a few words, I won't be using them.

I guess you do get that, Don, since we agree almost word for word.

[Schllc]

I’m a long time ForeFlight subscriber, and I do not relish the thought of learning a new system.  After I found out I get GP free with my charts subscription I downloaded and attempted to move my logbook and airplanes into the GP. It will not be a simple task so I am dragging my feet. 
that being said, I feel it’s going to boil down to one thing, which one can be utilized in your existing panel without the need for an extra device. 
I realize there are many planes out there that do no have compatible avionics, but that is slowly changing, and I don’t see ForeFlight entering the avionics game…

[PT20J]

It looks to me that both FF and GP products do the same thing albeit with a different user interface approach. Both use official data. Both only display what you need for the approach criteria you have entered. Garmin chose to display in a format that looks like a decluttered approach plate. ForeFlight displays the same information on the map. Garmin stresses that their product is approved for part 91. ForeFlight has a lot of part 135 users and this is likely the reason for retaining the ability to display and compare the route and altitudes with the published chart. But you can remove the chart overlay if you don't want it. The FF product doesn't include missed approaches or SIDs/STARs, however.

I run FF on an iPad mini on a yoke mount and usually display the approach chart on it. But, after setting up the GTN and entering the minimums into the G3X, I hardly ever look at it. What would really be nice is if Garmin would incorporate Smart Charts into the G3X.

Skip

[Rick Junkin]

52 minutes ago, PT20J said:

What would really be nice is if Garmin would incorporate Smart Charts into the G3X.

AMEN! That was the first question I asked when Garmin released SmartCharts. The answer was essentially that they're looking at how to deploy SmartCharts more broadly and that the Garmin Pilot implementation is the first step.

I've already made the transition to using the G3X to review NOS charts, which enabled me to remove the iPad from my yoke. Now I just have my iPhone on a MyGoFlight suction mount attached high on my side window to use for copying clearance and taking notes on the scratch pad, and for auto-recording into my Foreflight logbook. It's always there as a backup as well. I still do my flight planning and briefing on an iPad, and then use my phone to load the flight plan into the airplane.

Like @PT20J, once I've briefed the procedure and set up the GTN and G3X I don't need to reference the approach plate anymore. The thought of SmartCharts integration with both the G3X and GTN opens some really cool simplified automation possibilities.

[Rick Junkin]

37 minutes ago, PT20J said:

Garmin stresses that their product is approved for part 91. ForeFlight has a lot of part 135 users and this is likely the reason for retaining the ability to display and compare the route and altitudes with the published chart.

Indeed. It appears Garmin is continuing to optimize Garmin Pilot for Part 91 and possibly Part 125 operations, while ForeFlight has to keep the wider market of GA, commercial and military operations in mind. I tried to find some reliable numbers on the distribution of EFB users across Parts 91, 125 and 135 but understandably wasn't able to find anything publicly available. Garmin is big enough across their product lines to be able to afford to stay focused on the "niche" of Part 91/125, where Foreflight is more of a one-trick-pony and has to keep their offering relevant to all pilots and operation types. Granted, ForeFlight's one trick is a VERY good one.

[Schllc]

56 minutes ago, PT20J said:

 

I run FF on an iPad mini on a yoke mount and usually display the approach chart on it. But, after setting up the GTN and entering the minimums into the G3X, I hardly ever look at it. What would really be nice is if Garmin would incorporate Smart Charts into the G3X.

Skip

this is absolutely where they are going, and foreflight has little to no path for the same application...

[PeteMc]

4 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Garmin actually says in its training videos that they are legal replacements for the traditional charts

Good to know.

 

[Fly Boomer]

6 hours ago, Rick Junkin said:

I've already made the transition to using the G3X to review NOS charts, which enabled me to remove the iPad from my yoke. Now I just have my iPhone on a MyGoFlight suction mount attached high on my side window to use for copying clearance and taking notes on the scratch pad, and for auto-recording into my Foreflight logbook.

Did the yoke-mounted iPad cause problems, and do you find the iPhone as easy as the iPad for copying clearances and taking notes?

[Rick Junkin]

21 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Did the yoke-mounted iPad cause problems, and do you find the iPhone as easy as the iPad for copying clearances and taking notes?

I wouldn’t say the iPad was a problem, just one more piece of gear to mount and manage. It served great purpose before I upgraded my panel, but I found I didn’t need or use it much inflight with the new displays and avionics.

Writing on the iPhone is different but easy with an appropriate stylus. And I can use my finger if necessary. The mount I use makes it easy to detach the phone and hold it in my hand while I write on it.

[Lax291]

I've got GP Smart Charts, my instructor has FF DP and we were briefing an approach today. I noticed the different speeds for Cat A and Cat B between the two. Looks like FF is correct and GP might need to update the speed ranges?

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Lax291 said:

I've got GP Smart Charts, my instructor has FF DP and we were briefing an approach today. I noticed the different speeds for Cat A and Cat B between the two. Looks like FF is correct and GP might need to update the speed ranges?

Do you think if you flew it at 91 kts and then at 90 that anyone would notice? 

[PeteMc]

2 hours ago, EricJ said:

Do you think if you flew it at 91 kts and then at 90 that anyone would notice?

No...  But what if a heading was off by 10 degrees?  Or an altitude was off by 200 ft?