SOAP Analysis - Fleet Averages

[Barneyw]

Hi All

I just completed my first SOAP sample on an IO-360 C1D6. The engine is 518 SMOH, was bulk stripped at 417 hrs due to a leaking through stud and at that point the cam shaft "oil fed lobe" mod was incorporated. The engine is well past its calendar life and is currently running on condition.

The report came back clean but as you can appreciate I have nothing to compare it to and even with the next report two points does not make a trend.

I did read of one provider keeping a database of all engines and can provide a fleet average so you can compare and benchmark where your engine sits with other operator's engines. AOA out of Phoenix does not have such records. Furthermore, is there a chart that shows what the normal range should be. I have the Lycoming doc but it's quite blurry and that's from the Lycoming website.

I'm curious how many of you participate in the SOAP?

Does anyone have such a fleet wide record and a chart showing a normal range for the various metals or contaminates.

Is anyone willing to share a few of their reports.

Look forward to your replies

Cheers

Barney 

[KSMooniac]

Blackstone has an extensive database and is likely what you're looking for.  They'll show the last few measurements for your engine (over time, of course) along with their database averages, along with some human commentary in the notes.

Your engine must be an STC or field-approval replacement on your F and not typical of any factory Mooney, so I don't think you'll find any others here with their own data.  It might be close enough to the -A3B6(D) models on the J for oil analysis comparisons, though.  I used to do it every 2nd or 3rd oil change when I was a new owner, but quit doing it after my cam failed without any indication in the analysis reports.  YMMV

[Barneyw]

Thanks Scott

I get the same comment about the engine all the time. I have the original logbooks and can pinpoint the date it was changed from an A1A to the C1D6. That was back in 1977 so that particular engine has been installed for the better part of 50 years. Other than the one line "Engine change carried out" and the recorded model and serial number I cannot answer the question about how it was approved, probably lost in time. Given what I have read about the A1A I'm happy that it was changed for a different model. In any event from what I can glean from your comments I would need to compare to like model for like model, however, I would have thought that I could just compare, hopefully exercising some common sense here, an IO-360 with other IO-360s irrespective of model as they are essentially the same engines. Surely, within reason, the core of the engine would wear similarly and for the purpose of comparison and serve as good reference.

One last comment - the amount of different IO-360 (and O-360s) models out there, and I know they all serve different purposes and applications, seems to me to be a confusing mess.  

Before I close I am now curious about the engine and the possible STC/approval. I have had limited success at discovering approved STCs from official channels, and we do not do field approvals here in Australia, can someone please direct me to a site where I might be able to discover all the approved STCs for my aircraft or will it be a bit of a wild goose chase given the time that has passed.

Cheers

Barney

[KSMooniac]

In the US, you can order all of the records on-file with the FAA directly from them for a modest cost, like $10. They'll burn electronic copies on a CD and mail it. But they frequently don't have everything!

Was your plane in the US when it was modified? If so, that might be a good place to start. I have no idea how other countries handle issues like this. If it was a field approval, then a 337 Major Alteration form should've been filed too.

The FAA website also has a search engine for STC's so you can find everything that was available at one time or another there. I remember seeing IO 360 swaps when I searched everything related to Mooneys many years ago, but your variant doesn't stand out in my mind. The most unusual was the TCM IO-360 swap IMO. There is no such search for random field approvals, though.

Sent from my motorola edge plus 2023 using Tapatalk

[exM20K]

@Barneyw These are your guys:  https://www.blackstone-labs.com/

They have a ton of data, and it is nice that they share aggregated data with customers. Perhaps given where you are and the impracticality of shipping an oil sample half way around the globe, they'll share with you.  

If you search this forum for blackstone and 201, you will find some reports that will have the then-fleet averages, eg:  

 

Comparing against their fleet averages may depend on how the results are adjusted for make-up oil.

-dan

[Pinecone]

Problem is, you cannot compare their numbers with another labs numbers.  Unless both labs participate in the same QC program.

That is, there is a certification entity that sends out identical samples to all the participating labs and then rates their performance based on the testing of that standardized sample.

[Barneyw]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Problem is, you cannot compare their numbers with another labs numbers.  Unless both labs participate in the same QC program.

That is, there is a certification entity that sends out identical samples to all the participating labs and then rates their performance based on the testing of that standardized sample.

True but I am not asking for certification just a point of reference as a guide. Having said that I'm sure that the companies providing such a service are doing so at a high standard. 

[Schllc]

The “averages” in my humble opinion are somewhat questionable, as to the conclusivity. 
There are entirely too many permutations to really qualify what you are comparing. 
I have seen oil samples that had 5 hours since an oil change, and 120 hours since an oil change. An engine with 40 years smoh with 300 hours, and 2 years smoh with 1500 hours.   Is the plane flown 15 minutes in the pattern a month, or does it take 4 hour cross countries twice a week, is it sitting in the ramp in key west, or is it in an air conditioned hangar in the Mojave desert?  Is the engine burning oil at 1 qt per 4 hours of flight or no oil?
What goes into the formula to derive these averages has a lot less value without these qualifications. 
This isn’t to say there is no value, but unless you have consistent records over time on the engine in question, or there are obvious signs of catastrophic failure, the results are more conjecture than fact. 

[Pinecone]

On 12/12/2024 at 6:26 PM, Barneyw said:

True but I am not asking for certification just a point of reference as a guide. Having said that I'm sure that the companies providing such a service are doing so at a high standard. 

But they could be using different equipment that gives the same number for the same sample, but a different number than a different machine.

Oil analysis relies on trends, not raw numbers mainly

[Bartman]

On 12/16/2024 at 7:35 AM, Schllc said:

The “averages” in my humble opinion are somewhat questionable, as to the conclusivity. 
There are entirely too many permutations to really qualify what you are comparing. 
I have seen oil samples that had 5 hours since an oil change, and 120 hours since an oil change. An engine with 40 years smoh with 300 hours, and 2 years smoh with 1500 hours.   Is the plane flown 15 minutes in the pattern a month, or does it take 4 hour cross countries twice a week, is it sitting in the ramp in key west, or is it in an air conditioned hangar in the Mojave desert?  Is the engine burning oil at 1 qt per 4 hours of flight or no oil?
What goes into the formula to derive these averages has a lot less value without these qualifications. 
This isn’t to say there is no value, but unless you have consistent records over time on the engine in question, or there are obvious signs of catastrophic failure, the results are more conjecture than fact. 

Before I pulled the trigger and rebuilt my IO-360 in 2020 she was leaking a good amount and at 1950 SMOH it was burning some too.  It was leaking so much that the oil didn't have time to turn dark between oil changes.  Despite changing at 35 hours, the oil probably had more like 20 hours.  When we disassembled, it was very clean inside.  No deposits and no sludge.

Now its like Johnny Bench used to say in the commercial.  No runs, no drips, and no errors.   I like not having a mess under the engine, but my oil does get dark a bit quicker.

I have never done an oil analysis.  Don't plan on it.