AOPA Asks FAA to Block ADS-B Tracking for Fees

[Mooneymite]

Our local tax collector has been cracking down on aircraft owners who listed their address as out of state.  We suspect ADS-B has enabled this effort:

From AIN:

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2024-09-13/aopa-asks-faa-block-ads-b-tracking-fees?utm_campaign=AIN Alerts&utm_medium=email&_hsenc=p2ANqtz--ksgpmhZSzGIld8TJkbruc7AnCb_a-ce7tIJdAGCiHVpNFbLmMNqVTO7r3oZ__RxitF0UKXE76Ssa9-GOTyH3NZfwU6g&_hsmi=324570479&utm_content=324570479&utm_source=hs_email

[PeteMc]

Down side is that those airports that ARE going to charge landing fees will do it without ADS-B if it is not an option.  And when they push through the need to do it (if they have to go to any governing body), they will just up the fees to include the employee hours to do it.  So instead of what could have been a $2or $3 charge for the Airport to make money, it will be a $10 charge for the staffing.

 

[NickG]

I’m the AOPA AVN at KHND in Las Vegas. Unfortunately Las Vegas and the Clark County Dept of Airports have been the pioneers in the completely unreasonable “Special Event Fees”. AOPA is very active in fighting all of these attempts to squeeze GA.

[kortopates]

I can think of 3 airports in my local area that charge landing fees. they start at around $3 per thousand pounds of max gross weight. But then they charge approx another $10 fee to collect the payment. So i’ll end paying more like $16.50 for it. The third party collection is the majority of the cost.
The private airport at Catalina has the most expensive fee.


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[NickG]

24 minutes ago, kortopates said:

I can think of 3 airports in my local area that charge landing fees. they start at around $3 per thousand pounds of max gross weight. But then they charge approx another $10 fee to collect the payment. So i’ll end paying more like $16.50 for it. The third party collection is the majority of the cost.
The private airport at Catalina has the most expensive fee.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Come and land in Las Vegas ( VGT, LAS, HND ) during a “special event”. Fees for light aircraft (up to 6k#) $750 up to $5000. They want to raise it to $10,000 for the top tier over the next 5 years.

[A64Pilot]

23 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

Our local tax collector has been cracking down on aircraft owners who listed their address as out of state.  We suspect ADS-B has enabled this effort:

From AIN:

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2024-09-13/aopa-asks-faa-block-ads-b-tracking-fees?utm_campaign=AIN Alerts&utm_medium=email&_hsenc=p2ANqtz--ksgpmhZSzGIld8TJkbruc7AnCb_a-ce7tIJdAGCiHVpNFbLmMNqVTO7r3oZ__RxitF0UKXE76Ssa9-GOTyH3NZfwU6g&_hsmi=324570479&utm_content=324570479&utm_source=hs_email

Fl openly admits it, what bothers me is they use Flight Aware, why that bothers me is that isn’t just Government source, but bunches of “nuts” that build ADSB receivers out of Rasberry Pi’s and then upload the data to Flight Aware and I believe Flight Aware gives them a free subscription to something, unsure as to what.

Imagine if you will the outcry if a bunch of “nuts” built license plate readers and uploaded the data for everyone to see on the internet?

ADSB the way it’s being disseminated is a HUGE invasion of privacy, one that I can’t fathom why it’s allowed

Edited September 14 by A64Pilot

[Hank]

24 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

ADSB the way it’s being disseminated is a HUGE invasion of privacy, one that Incan’t fathom why it’s allowed

Because it lets the FAA decommission many VORs and save all that money on maintenance and repair. Instead, they have shifted the burden to aircraft owners, using weather broadcasts as the carrot, and limiting altitude to 10,000 msl and requiring advance written permission to fly within 30 nm of Class B airports as the stick.

It also permits billing of ATC and airport services based on ADS-B location, along with whatever future fees the administrative state decides to implement, and they don't have to depend on you to self-report, they just pull up the daily ADS-B tracking report and auto-generate bills to send to the recorded address of the N-number owner (no new headcount required, just a bit for coding and server maintenance).

This is just part of why I am not equipped. Besides, I hardly ever fly within 30 nm of Class B fields; the only one I want to fly near with any frequency is ATL, and they've yet to give me clearance to transit the Bravo in 17 years of asking, and no, I don't want to overfly their 13,000 msl ceiling in my little C--I'd have to buy an oxygen bottle, and the climb would take a considerable time to achieve. Charlotte, however, is nice, and recently directed my to transit West-to-East directly over the field, so yes, it's really just an ATL thing (must be too many damn yankee controllers!).

[A64Pilot]

12 minutes ago, Hank said:

Because it lets the FAA decommission many VORs and save all that money on maintenance and repair. Instead, they have shifted the burden to aircraft owners, using weather broadcasts as the carrot, and limiting altitude to 10,000 msl and requiring advance written permission to fly within 30 nm of Class B airports as the stick.

It also permits billing of ATC and airport services based on ADS-B location, along with whatever future fees the administrative state decides to implement, and they don't have to depend on you to self-report, they just pull up the daily ADS-B tracking report and auto-generate bills to send to the recorded address of the N-number owner (no new headcount required, just a bit for coding and server maintenance).

This is just part of why I am not equipped. Besides, I hardly ever fly within 30 nm of Class B fields; the only one I want to fly near with any frequency is ATL, and they've yet to give me clearance to transit the Bravo in 17 years of asking, and no, I don't want to overfly their 13,000 msl ceiling in my little C--I'd have to buy an oxygen bottle, and the climb would take a considerable time to achieve. Charlotte, however, is nice, and recently directed my to transit West-to-East directly over the field, so yes, it's really just an ATL thing (must be too many damn yankee controllers!).

No, your missing the point.

What you’re saying is true.

But none of that explains the free dissemination to the general public about your where abouts or your activities. My “beef” is the US government freely disbursing what I consider an invasion of privacy and could well be unsafe as in anyone wishing me or mine harm know where I am, and that I won’t be home etc.  Like I said there would be a huge outcry if the Government distributed tracking data about your automobile, why is it different for my aircraft?

I used to overfly Atl from S to N or vice versa quite often VFR, going directly over the center, perhaps it was due to my heading nearly due N or S?

Edited September 14 by A64Pilot

[Hank]

6 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

No, your missing the point.

What you’re saying is true.

But none of that explains the free dissemination to the general public about your where about or your activities. My “beef” is the US government freely disbursing what I consider an invasion of privacy and could well be unsafe as in anyone wishing me or mine harm know where I am, and that I won’t be home etc. 

I used to overfly Atl from S to N or vice versa quite often VFR, going directly over the center, perhaps it was due to my heading nearly due N or S?

It's not the government disseminating the flight information. It's simply that the required equipment is not encoded at all, and Flight Aware / Radar24 or whatever it's called, and other web services, simply deploy RaspberryPi units to receive and collect the information for display. I'm not even ADS-B equipped, yet Flight Aware shows all of my non-local flights. But it's nice to have people able to meet me at my destination, and track my arrival time accurately using FA.

What bothers me is that any fool can type my N-number into Google and get my name and address. Try that with a car license plate, you won't get anything back--in fact, it's illegal to provide the information to anyone other than law enforcement.

P.S.--as early as 2008, I couldn't enter ATL Bravo heading 197 from KHTW to KMLJ . . . .

[wombat]

4 hours ago, Hank said:

Try that with a car license plate, you won't get anything back--in fact, it's illegal to provide the information to anyone other than law enforcement.

Do you have any references on what laws make that illegal?  

As @A64Pilot says the public would probably not be happy if we started doing this with license plates.  Although there is nothing illegal about collecting it as far as I know, and homeowner price level ALPR (Automated License Plate Recognition) hardware and software is easily available.     And unless @Hank knows something specific that I don't, I don't actually think it's illegal to make that data more widely available either.  The data (your license plate and location) is public to begin with.

[MikeOH]

7 minutes ago, wombat said:

Do you have any references on what laws make that illegal?  

As @A64Pilot says the public would probably not be happy if we started doing this with license plates.  Although there is nothing illegal about collecting it as far as I know, and homeowner price level ALPR (Automated License Plate Recognition) hardware and software is easily available.     And unless @Hank knows something specific that I don't, I don't actually think it's illegal to make that data more widely available either.  The data (your license plate and location) is public to begin with.

Hmm, I'm only familiar with Kalifornia but the DMV will NOT release personal information based on the license plate number.  So, where else do I go for this "publically" available information?

[wombat]

40 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Hmm, I'm only familiar with Kalifornia but the DMV will NOT release personal information based on the license plate number.  So, where else do I go for this "publically" available information?

I am talking about access to the license plate and location data.

"California Plate N12345 was at 3rd and Vine heading Eastbound at 4:34 PM on November 5th."

The data that the FAA makes available is the link between registration number and ownership.  That part is not available to the public for license plates.  But that part is unaffected by ADS-B, that has been available for a long time.

[MikeOH]

8 minutes ago, wombat said:

I am talking about access to the license plate and location data.

"California Plate N12345 was at 3rd and Vine heading Eastbound at 4:34 PM on November 5th."

The data that the FAA makes available is the link between registration number and ownership.  That part is not available to the public for license plates.  But that part is unaffected by ADS-B, that has been available for a long time.

Got it.  Thanks

[DCarlton]

On 9/13/2024 at 8:37 PM, NickG said:

Come and land in Las Vegas ( VGT, LAS, HND ) during a “special event”. Fees for light aircraft (up to 6k#) $750 up to $5000. They want to raise it to $10,000 for the top tier over the next 5 years.

Do they publish NOTAMS for these events?  No chance of finding out after you land?  

[Hank]

2 hours ago, wombat said:

The data that the FAA makes available is the link between registration number and ownership.  That part is not available to the public for license plates.  But that part is unaffected by ADS-B, that has been available for a long time.

And that's the part that bothers me!!

[A64Pilot]

9 hours ago, wombat said:

Do you have any references on what laws make that illegal?  

As @A64Pilot says the public would probably not be happy if we started doing this with license plates.  Although there is nothing illegal about collecting it as far as I know, and homeowner price level ALPR (Automated License Plate Recognition) hardware and software is easily available.     And unless @Hank knows something specific that I don't, I don't actually think it's illegal to make that data more widely available either.  The data (your license plate and location) is public to begin with.

Try calling the cops to find out who owns a vehicle by giving them a license plate number, I had one parked on my property and did. Just try it, they won’t respond nicely.

The Government is very much at fault in the dissemination of personal data, by making the N number registry freely available for anyone to look up.

In order to keep myself from being traceable personally I had to form a Montana LLC and the airplane is “owned” by it so when you search my N number it comes up with the LLC and gives you an address is Calispell  Montanna and NOT my name and address.

Cost money, is a little bit of a PIA and is something I shouldn’t be required to do, and as I said Fl uses Flight Aware to assess taxes, and Flight Aware is privately owned and lots of its data comes from these nuts collecting it, so just how reliable is it? Think maybe some of it is incorrect?

I don’t know of any law forbidding dissemination of a database that ties your name and address to your license plates as I’m no Lawyer, but bet there is one.

[FlyingDude]

I fully agree on the invasion of privacy thing. I even researched that and it seems the only option is to have an attorney file an LLC for you... Then it'll be their name and their address... I just thought that's expensive...

As for the billing part. Local admins have been devising new ways to milk residents and others for a while. Before covid here they had millages because "their healthcare costs have risen." They're building new mcmansions here (which to me  just mean that you can get rich but can't buy taste.) They go for astronomical prices, setting new and high property taxes. The rest of us see the maximum allowed yearly increase. Ok, where's that money going? A colleague of mine is involved in township meetings and he says he can't fathom it. It must be going somewhere.  So I'm not surprised that they're attacking airports, too. We're just getting our "fare share" of the increased government spending... Adsb or not.

[Schllc]

The most bizarre part of this is that nowhere outside of military bases(not sure how much they use them domestically either) uses active radar so if you’re flying around without a transponder who would know?  
 

that being said, this is just another example of a government / bureaucratic decision that fails to consider unintended consequences, and even worse does nothing after those consequences reveal themselves. 
Just four days ago a sheriffs deputy was wandering around my office building, asking everyone for me by name. When I greeted him he said he saw my beautiful plane and was wondering if I needed his services as a pilot. When I asked him how he found me he said he looked up my tail number and it provided my name. This was obviously a lie because it is registered in the name of an LLC, so there were a few more steps required to find a name.  Not sure why he lied…

also, my home drome instituted a “voluntary noise abatement policy” to not use the airport between 10pm and 7am.  They can’t enforce it but if you land or take off in the forbidden zone, you receive a letter of admonishing you for bad behavior.   This is generated by Adsb  

The weather and traffic are wonderful innovations, but the lack of privacy is extremely concerning, and seems to be completely unnecessary and intrusive. 

Edited September 15 by Schllc

[A64Pilot]

If anyone is interested this is one way, cost more than $50 a yr as there are a couple of other fees and your airplane is registered as a Montanna aircraft, you get a sticker to put on it. It’s surely less than $100, I honestly haven’t kept track

The service is set up as a tax dodge for Motorhomes and it works for that, but depending on your State it may not for Aircraft (different rules)

https://www.49dollarmontanaregisteredagent.com/?gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADcPHQHObgenCOfU_LTzQKyK1gVit&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4rHctPLEiAMVSJ5aBR3aUznlEAAYASAAEgI4jfD_BwE

[A64Pilot]

As a partial answer of “where is all this money going”

Everything and I mean everything cost 20% more than it did 3 years ago, so therefore to stay even they just like the rest of us have to generate 20% more income, or cut expenses and that’s their payroll etc so of course they don’t want to do that, I don’t either but being Retired I can tell you it cuts into play time

It’s just how inflation works

[NickG]

9 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Do they publish NOTAMS for these events?  No chance of finding out after you land?  

Yes, they publish NOTAMS along with requiring PPR

[Will.iam]

4 hours ago, NickG said:

Yes, they publish NOTAMS along with requiring PPR

PPR is code for fees. 

[FlyingDude]

6 hours ago, Schllc said:

also, my home drome instituted a “voluntary noise abatement policy” to not use the airport between 10pm and 7am

Time for a new manager.

Someone who cares about flying and doesn't buckle before ballbreakers. Unless of course driving is also curbed at those hours.

[FlyingDude]

6 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Everything and I mean everything cost 20% more than it did 3 years ago

They were bitching and moaning for more money way before covid. I guess with Inflation their squandering also rose by 20%.

[A64Pilot]

44 minutes ago, FlyingDude said:

They were bitching and moaning for more money way before covid. I guess with Inflation their squandering also rose by 20%.

Now they are justified. The purpose of any bureaucracy is not to do they job it is stated it exists for, it’s to perpetuate the bureaucracy, once you understand that it starts to make sense.   

Edited September 15 by A64Pilot