Help pick my avionics

[Pinecone]

I like it.  I like being able to have another screen of data up that I can see with a quick glance.

Other pilots I fly with like it also.

Another option is an AERA 760 in a dock.  I was going to go with that at first.

One other reason I went with the second one is that we ran out of RS232 ports and would have lost some capability for interfacing the coms.  Each G3X has something like 6 or 7 ports.  But the communicate over another bus, so having another one gives you all those extra ports.

 

[Pinecone]

23 hours ago, Max Clark said:

How do you like the GFC on top? Not to stir things up, I've seen these top of stack and bottom of stack and trying to get a sense of the difference.

It seems airline guys like it on top, as that is what they are used to.

I put mine over the throttle, as that is more where my hand would be.

[Barneyw]

My panel is coming together and I should be test flying hopefully next Friday after the W&B and fuel calibration is completed. The panel is all Garmin except for the EIS which was a retained EI CGR 30 Combo and I added the skid ball and a uAvionix AV-20S. The two holes on the right will be blanks.

Cheers

[shawnd]

Looks nice! What are you putting in the 3.25" slots?

[Barneyw]

Thanks Shawnd

On the LHS are the two EI CGR 30P/C Combo EIS which keeps everything pilot focused. The EIS was fitted recently just before I purchased the aircraft and it seemed economically wasteful to get rid of them plus the fact I liked them.  On the RHS will be blanks which just provides future options but for now I have no plans for those cut outs.

Cheers  

[Max Clark]

Where I'm at so far:

1. G3x Touch PFD w/ EIS
2. G5 Standby
3. GTN 750xi GPS/NAV/COMM/MFD
4. GFC 500 Autopilot

What do I do about the secondary GPS(?)/NAV(?)/COMM

• GNC 215 NAV/COMM $5,295.00 List (really wish the remote mount was available for certified aircraft)
• GNC 355 GPS/COMM $7,895.00 List
• GTN 650Xi GPS/NAV/COMM/MFD $13,795.00 List

I'm used to constantly tuning two VFRs along my XC (CFI was real old school, and CFII reinforced it) so I'm struggling to imagine not having that functionality. I get that VORs are being decommissioned, but we'll still have them.

The G3x has an integrated (VFR) GPS. Do I need a second GPS Navigator or should I save the dough and put in a GNC 215?

What is the GNC 355 get me over the 215 that's worth the extra $? Would it be better to have redundant NAV vs single NAV and three GPS?

Am I going to regret not buying the GTN 650xi?

[Barneyw]

Hi Max

How about a remote mounted radio and a GNX 375. I noticed there is no transponder in your list.

I think at the end of the day it's all about risk management. If your are planning to take things to the limits then having two separate systems would be good. For me I have rather conservative personal weather minimas but still have two independent GPS sets (650/375). In actual fact I have 4 independent GPS sets two IFR and two VFR (G3x and G5) so a lot has to go wrong before you are in trouble. You are a little more blessed in the US with wider radar coverage so a vector and descent to cloud break or an SRA could be accomplished in an emergency and your G5 provides 4 hours of use.

I'm not sure what your alternate requirements are but even though PVT ops only requires one navaid I prefer to have to have two independent nav sources. As an aside I think there will be always a case to keep some form of terrestrial based navaids and the VOR/ILS has been bread and butter for the IFR pilot in years gone by.

All the best with your choice. My aircraft will be picked up on next Monday/Tuesday.

Cheers  

 

 

 

[Vance Harral]

1 hour ago, Barneyw said:

As an aside I think there will be always a case to keep some form of terrestrial based navaids and the VOR/ILS has been bread and butter for the IFR pilot in years gone by

... and if you're actually going to make use of your ground-based nav system - which you should to ensure you're proficient in doing so if backup is needed - I'm increasingly realizing it's just easier do this with a simple nav receiver and traditional CDI.  That's a vote for a GNC-215 or -255.

Yes, a GTN650 or other GPS/NAV/COM can be switched to "green needles" for ground-based nav; and you can set an OBS course on a G5/G3X/whatever.  But this turns out to be fairly complex and irritating to do vs. how things work with older equipment.  So much so that a few pilots I fly with who have decades of experience, are well-versed in traditional VOR/ILS operations, and also well-versed in using their high-end GPS navigator, actually have trouble setting up a simple VOR course on them.  It's not that they don't understand how VORs work, it's just trouble with the number of button pushes/clicks/touchscreen events in the navigator and EFIS to get to the menu that selects the frequency and sets the course selector.

The most operationally useful airplanes I fly for IFR have high-end navigators and electronic HSI displays for NAV1 - which stays in GPS mode pretty much exclusively; and an old-school KX-155 or GNC-255 with mechanical CDI indicator for NAV2.

[toto]

7 hours ago, Max Clark said:

Where I'm at so far:

1. G3x Touch PFD w/ EIS
2. G5 Standby
3. GTN 750xi GPS/NAV/COMM/MFD
4. GFC 500 Autopilot

What do I do about the secondary GPS(?)/NAV(?)/COMM

• GNC 215 NAV/COMM $5,295.00 List (really wish the remote mount was available for certified aircraft)
• GNC 355 GPS/COMM $7,895.00 List
• GTN 650Xi GPS/NAV/COMM/MFD $13,795.00 List

 

2 hours ago, Vance Harral said:

The most operationally useful airplanes I fly for IFR have high-end navigators and electronic HSI displays for NAV1 - which stays in GPS mode pretty much exclusively; and an old-school KX-155 or GNC-255 with mechanical CDI indicator for NAV2.

 

This is the approach I took.  I have Max's #1-4 for primary, and then I kept my original secondary KX-155 with an analog indicator.

[Max Clark]

5 minutes ago, toto said:

 

 

This is the approach I took.  I have Max's #1-4 for primary, and then I kept my original secondary KX-155 with an analog indicator.

Where did you mount the analog indicator?

[toto]

I have my G5 to the right of the G3X on the top, and the analog indicator is directly below the G5 (between the G3X and the GTN).

[Vance Harral]

The fancier the high-end stuff you install, the more spare room there is for that old-school bling.

This is not a Mooney, but you get the idea.  This particular owner lacks not for cash, and installed dual G500TXi 7" displays, GTN 750 with remote audio panel and transponder, GI-275 for backup attitude... but that's a "cheap" #2 NAV/COM driving a mechanical CDI in an otherwise $75K-ish panel.

[Pinecone]

On 9/6/2024 at 10:21 AM, Max Clark said:

Where I'm at so far:

1. G3x Touch PFD w/ EIS
2. G5 Standby
3. GTN 750xi GPS/NAV/COMM/MFD
4. GFC 500 Autopilot

What do I do about the secondary GPS(?)/NAV(?)/COMM

• GNC 215 NAV/COMM $5,295.00 List (really wish the remote mount was available for certified aircraft)
• GNC 355 GPS/COMM $7,895.00 List
• GTN 650Xi GPS/NAV/COMM/MFD $13,795.00 List

I'm used to constantly tuning two VFRs along my XC (CFI was real old school, and CFII reinforced it) so I'm struggling to imagine not having that functionality. I get that VORs are being decommissioned, but we'll still have them.

The G3x has an integrated (VFR) GPS. Do I need a second GPS Navigator or should I save the dough and put in a GNC 215?

What is the GNC 355 get me over the 215 that's worth the extra $? Would it be better to have redundant NAV vs single NAV and three GPS?

Am I going to regret not buying the GTN 650xi?

Best would be the 650Xi.  This is what I ended up with, but I already had it in my existing panel.  So the cost difference with a new lower level radio and the trade in of the 650 was not worth it.

But it is the most expensive option.  But I am very happy having it.

[Max Clark]

32 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

But it is the most expensive option.  But I am very happy having it.

That's where I think I'm headed.

The cost savings to drop down to a GNC 215 isn't that much considering what the whole package is going to run.

[Marc_B]

I have a GTN750/650Xi and love the remote radio control where I can send freqs from either GTN or the G500 (or G3X) to each other. I can pull up destination waypoint page and send ATIS and ground to comm2 and add tower to comm 1 in standby while I’m speaking with approach. Buttonology is identical between the 750/650 but also along several of the garmin units.

For an IFR traveling machine I like having two nav/coms. But that being said I’d speak to your shop about the integration (or not) with the various options. You’ll likely be doing most of your “work” from the G3X or GTN750. 

[StevenL757]

On 8/22/2024 at 10:51 AM, Max Clark said:

Current: M20R Ovation 2 DX mostly original. JPI EDM 730 was added replacing the 700, Avidyne 540/440 stack replaced the Garmin

Want: Large PFD & GFC 500 autopilot

Questions:

1. G500 TXi w/ 275 Standby or G3X w/ G5 Standby - I haven't figured out what the tradeoffs between these displays & standbys are (SL) G500 TXi w/ 275 Standby
2. Integrated EIS or EDM 900/930 - hearing that Garmin's EIS isn't what you might hope for vs the EDM (SL) EDM930 without a doubt.  The Ovation panel is big-enough to accommodate the larger EDM930 and you'll appreciate the bigger piece of real estate.
3. GTN 750Xi seems like a no brainer - is it worth spending the $ on a GTN650Xi or step down to a GNC 215 or GTR 205 (SL) GTN650Xi again, without a doubt.  Full redundancy across VOR/LOC/GPS, as well as seamless flight plan Xfer.  I appreciate other units do this; however, the only thing you'll lose by adding a 650Xi to the 750Xi is the viewing real estate and the ability to do charts on the 650Xi. 
4. Should I even think about adding a 9" portrait mode MFD for the right seat (SL)  No.  The Ovation is a single-pilot airplane.  It isn't necessary for "co-pilot instruments" to be added.  With your GI275 backing up your G500TXi, you'll have the necessary redundancy in place already without spending unnecessary $.  Add the EDM930 to the right side and you'll have a very neat, clean, redundant, and gorgeous-looking panel.  I leave you with a panel pic from my first Ovation's major upgrade as a guideline.  :-)

Really curious what you think is worth it, and what isn't. Don't want to waste money, but don't want to wish I did something different after the fact.  (SL)  Excellent point

Thanks!

Late to the party, but I'll throw my $0.02 in here...from doing this exercise 4 times to 3 airplanes...

My answers inline above...

[Max Clark]

10 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

Late to the party, but I'll throw my $0.02 in here...from doing this exercise 4 times to 3 airplanes...

My answers inline above...

Great looking panel!

I haven't found a good answer for this - why the G500TXi & 275 vs G3x Touch & G5?

[Marc_B]

18 minutes ago, Max Clark said:

I haven't found a good answer for this - why the G500TXi & 275 vs G3x Touch & G5?

It’s a matter of the experimental arm of Garmin vs their certified team. G500 and GI275 came from the certified side.

For the most part this doesn’t matter but sometimes you find quirks with how they are set up, color differences, different location or order of items that reflect two separate teams working siloed.

But I have a G500TXi with a G5 standby.  My panel is all squares and rectangles and most importantly the GI275 wasn’t available and was more expensive. I still like the setup and battery life of the G5 better than the GI275 although the 275 is a more capable unit that can fill in other needs in the right situations. 

[StevenL757]

11 minutes ago, Max Clark said:

I haven't found a good answer for this - why the G500TXi & 275 vs G3x Touch & G5?

Without doing a deep-dive, the G500Txi is not only a crisper and cleaner-looking display, but is by far more compatible with both newer and legacy hardware from a variety of vendors than the G3X Touch.  Flat-out, it's a better quality piece of hardware all the way around.  The GI275 is - as my avionics shop put it - a "Txi in a tube"...meaning, it contains literally all the functionality of the G500 TXi in a smaller package.  Again, from an interoperability standpoint, the 500 and 275 are far-superior.  The installation criteria is also much less-limited on the TXi and 275.  I appreciate they cost more, but you'll certainly appreciate the added levels of functionality, flexibility, and ease of use.

[hubcap]

On 9/6/2024 at 9:21 AM, Max Clark said:

Where I'm at so far:

1. G3x Touch PFD w/ EIS
2. G5 Standby
3. GTN 750xi GPS/NAV/COMM/MFD
4. GFC 500 Autopilot

What do I do about the secondary GPS(?)/NAV(?)/COMM

• GNC 215 NAV/COMM $5,295.00 List (really wish the remote mount was available for certified aircraft)
• GNC 355 GPS/COMM $7,895.00 List
• GTN 650Xi GPS/NAV/COMM/MFD $13,795.00 List

I'm used to constantly tuning two VFRs along my XC (CFI was real old school, and CFII reinforced it) so I'm struggling to imagine not having that functionality. I get that VORs are being decommissioned, but we'll still have them.

The G3x has an integrated (VFR) GPS. Do I need a second GPS Navigator or should I save the dough and put in a GNC 215?

What is the GNC 355 get me over the 215 that's worth the extra $? Would it be better to have redundant NAV vs single NAV and three GPS?

Am I going to regret not buying the GTN 650xi?

While planning my upgrade, I had to ask many of the same questions. I went with:

• GTN 650xi GPS WAAS navigator plus NAV/COM
• GNX 375    GPS WAAS navigator plus transponder
• 10" G3x Touch PFD w / EIS
• 10" G3x Touch PFD/MFD
• GFC 500 Autopilot
• G5 backup
• GMA 345 audio panel
• Garmin remote comm - not sure of the number

The only non-redundant hardware is radio based navigation. I wanted both the 10" screens of the G3x which reduced the real estate options for radios. I went with the 650xi and the GNX375. The 650 is primary and the flight plans automatically cross-fill to the GNX375. If the 650 fails the 375 will take over GPS navigation. So I have dual everything except radio navigation. My reasoning was that with VOR's being removed from service, the redundancy in radio navigation wasn't worth the expense. Technically I have 3 GPS navigators but the G3x isn't certified for IFR use. As far as compatibility with other brands of equipment; it was a non-issue as I went with all Garmin. I previously had a G500 and it was a good piece of hardware, I find the G3x to be just as good and it is engineered to integrate with the GFC500 autopilot.

I am not suggesting that other options and possibilities aren't as good, but I couldn't be happier with my setup. Get what YOU want, since you are the one who has to be happy with it....and pay for it.

As a side note on radio based navigation - on the way home from MooneyMax yesterday, I heard two requests for VOR practice approaches and the controller told them the only way they could fly them is if they had a GPS that would shoot the approach using the VOR overlay......because the VOR's were no longer active.

[Pinecone]

If you are going all Garmin, a lot of the goodness of the G500TXi is not used.  The G3X is cheaper.

I used the savings to put a 7" G3X on the right side.

[201Mooniac]

7 hours ago, StevenL757 said:

Without doing a deep-dive, the G500Txi is not only a crisper and cleaner-looking display, but is by far more compatible with both newer and legacy hardware from a variety of vendors than the G3X Touch.  Flat-out, it's a better quality piece of hardware all the way around.  The GI275 is - as my avionics shop put it - a "Txi in a tube"...meaning, it contains literally all the functionality of the G500 TXi in a smaller package.  Again, from an interoperability standpoint, the 500 and 275 are far-superior.  The installation criteria is also much less-limited on the TXi and 275.  I appreciate they cost more, but you'll certainly appreciate the added levels of functionality, flexibility, and ease of use.

While I also have the TXi and GI 275, I think the cost versus interoperability can be an issue for some when doing an all Garmin panel where the interoperability isn't an issue.  I find the TXi display looks better and I would do the same thing today (the G3X wasn't available for certified aircraft when I did my install) I can understand the cost argument.  I also think having everything connected by HSDB with 100Mbps ethernet is definitely valuable as well and you don't run out of RS-232 ports.

[Pinecone]

I am hoping that a G3Xi or G4X is coming soon and will fit the same panel cutout.

I would upgrade, thinking there would be a market for a G3X

[Fly Boomer]

15 hours ago, hubcap said:

G3x isn't certified for IFR use

Is this right?

[hubcap]

4 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Is this right?

The G3x cannot legally be used as an IFR GPS Navigator using its built-in GPS. It is legal to use the internal GPS for VFR flight.

It is perfectly legal to use the G3x as a PFD while using a certified GPS navigator like the GTN 650xi.