Advancing age and insurance

[Schllc]

  On 12/24/2023 at 1:17 AM, kortopates said:

Glad Mike asked because i thought you had 1 mill smooth.


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What does smooth mean?

[kortopates]

  On 12/24/2023 at 1:20 AM, Schllc said:

What does smooth mean?

no sub-limits constraint.


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[Schllc]

  On 12/24/2023 at 1:21 AM, kortopates said:

no sub-limits constraint.


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You mean instead of 150k per person and 1 million per occurrence, it would be 1 mil per person and 1mil per occurrence?

[kortopates]

  On 12/24/2023 at 1:34 AM, Schllc said:

You mean instead of 150k per person and 1 million per occurrence, it would be 1 mil per person and 1mil per occurrence?

Exactly! 150K per person doesn’t go very far these days hence the desire for smooth limits.


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[Parker_Woodruff]

The right pilot & aircraft combo could conceivably get $2MM Smooth from the primary underwriting company and then up to $4 or $5MM excess liability.  Maybe more.  There are still insurance limits out there that I can't believe even exist.

[MikeOH]

  On 12/24/2023 at 2:06 AM, Parker_Woodruff said:

The right pilot & aircraft combo could conceivably get $2MM Smooth from the primary underwriting company and then up to $4 or $5MM excess liability.  Maybe more.  There are still insurance limits out there that I can't believe even exist.

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But, at what price?  (Not expecting an exact answer, but we must be talking significant multiples of even a 1 Mil smooth limit premium)

[MikeOH]

  On 12/24/2023 at 1:34 AM, Schllc said:

You mean instead of 150k per person and 1 million per occurrence, it would be 1 mil per person and 1mil per occurrence?

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Also note that with MOST underwriters the $1 million limit can apply to a single person ON THE GROUND, while the $150K sub-limit is PER PASSENGER in your plane.  The exception that I was aware of, which may no longer be true, is that AVEMCO's policy applies the sub-limits to ANYONE, even those injured/killed on the ground!  IOW, with most carriers you have $1 mill coverage to damage injury to anyone/anything OUTSIDE your aircraft, but not with AVEMCO (again, may no longer be the case; read your policy!)

[Parker_Woodruff]

  On 12/24/2023 at 2:22 AM, MikeOH said:

But, at what price?  (Not expecting an exact answer, but we must be talking significant multiples of even a 1 Mil smooth limit premium)

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depending on the plane, it'll probably push 5 figures all-in

[MikeOH]

  On 12/24/2023 at 2:59 AM, Parker_Woodruff said:

depending on the plane, it'll probably push 5 figures all-in

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YOWZER!

Can't say I'm surprised, however.

[MikeOH]

  On 12/24/2023 at 2:59 AM, Parker_Woodruff said:

depending on the plane, it'll probably push 5 figures all-in

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@Parker_Woodruff Another question, if you'll humor me:

I've always wondered if carrying higher limits just painted a target on your back...do plaintiff's attorneys have access to your coverage limits?

[Parker_Woodruff]

  On 12/24/2023 at 3:02 AM, MikeOH said:

@Parker_Woodruff Another question, if you'll humor me:

I've always wondered if carrying higher limits just painted a target on your back...do plaintiff's attorneys have access to your coverage limits?

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It's probably a combination.  Low limits but high net worth?  They're probably coming for you anyway.

[MikeOH]

  On 12/24/2023 at 7:29 PM, Parker_Woodruff said:

It's probably a combination.  Low limits but high net worth?  They're probably coming for you anyway.

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No doubt.

I am curious how often the judgements/settlements exceed policy limits. Any idea?

And, do you know if plaintiff's attorneys know your policy limits before they sue?  I.e., is that info 'publicly available?'

[Parker_Woodruff]

  On 12/24/2023 at 8:16 PM, MikeOH said:

No doubt.

I am curious how often the judgements/settlements exceed policy limits. Any idea?

And, do you know if plaintiff's attorneys know your policy limits before they sue?  I.e., is that info 'publicly available?'

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I am not entirely sure, but the word "discovery" gets brought up a lot...

For awhile in Texas (not sure this is still the case), a *jury* wasn't supposed to know if an alleged at-fault driver had insurance.  The insurance company would not be named in the suit.

[Schllc]

For frivolous or marginal lawsuits the ambulance chasers will absolutely drop the lower limits like a hot potato. 
higher limits, higher net worth, or an airtight case of negligence is not so easy. 
just remember, your insurance is not your friend either way.  Their only mission is to pay as little as possible in every instance. 

[MikeOH]

  On 12/24/2023 at 10:16 PM, Schllc said:

For frivolous or marginal lawsuits the ambulance chasers will absolutely drop the lower limits like a hot potato. 
higher limits, higher net worth, or an airtight case of negligence is not so easy. 
just remember, your insurance is not your friend either way.  Their only mission is to pay as little as possible in every instance. 

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Well, I view my premiums going to the carrier’s duty to defend me; their mission to pay as little as possible is in our MUTUAL best interest

[amillet]

There have been cases where the insurance company rejected an offer from plaintiffs attorneys to settle for policy limits, and subsequently resulting in a jury verdict in excess of policy limits. The insured ends up on the hook for the excess ( and a potential claim for insurance bad faith against the insurance company). If sued, you might want to hire an independent attorney, not just solely rely on the attorney hired by the insurance company to defend against the lawsuit.

[Schllc]

  On 12/25/2023 at 6:44 AM, amillet said:

There have been cases where the insurance company rejected an offer from plaintiffs attorneys to settle for policy limits, and subsequently resulting in a jury verdict in excess of policy limits. The insured ends up on the hook for the excess ( and a potential claim for insurance bad faith against the insurance company). If sued, you might want to hire an independent attorney, not just solely rely on the attorney hired by the insurance company to defend against the lawsuit.

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That’s my point. The little guys that interface with us have no power, and make no determinations. They are just fee collectors. The underwriters wage a war of attrition with everyone else. Their sole objective is to pay as close to nothing as possible.  They will often spend well beyond the cost of the claim fighting a claim. It is a twisted broken industry.  Most of this was accomplished by onerous regulation, and the rest is just the business model. 

[Robert C.]

  On 10/31/2023 at 11:28 PM, rturbett said:

Not sure why an insurance company would reward youth and inexperience.......

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Well played!

That line worked for Ronald Reagan, not sure it would work for us in our insurance applications

 

[PT20J]

I believe that insurance companies have negotiating advantages that the rest of us don't.

Several years ago, while driving, someone made a right turn from the left lane in front of me such that I could not avoid hitting them. I filed a claim with their insurance company (Geico) and they denied it saying that it was my fault because I hit the other car. I filed a claim with my insurance company (State Farm) which promptly paid for the repairs. Many months later, I received a letter from State Farm to the effect that they had been reimbursed by Geico.

When the Atlantic FBO in San Jose CA damaged my nose gear, they refused to take responsibility. I filed a claim with my insurer (USAIG) and they paid for the repair. USAIG contacted Atlantic and the FBO manager again refused to take any responsibility or provide copies of security videos. But, several months later, I received an email from USAIG saying that Atlantic had reimbursed them in full.

Apparently, deals are made behind the curtain.

Skip

[A64Pilot]

  On 12/24/2023 at 9:57 PM, Parker_Woodruff said:

I am not entirely sure, but the word "discovery" gets brought up a lot...

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Maybe this has been brought up already, but I recently just bought a 2 Mil umbrella policy, which excludes aviation and personal watercraft and maybe something else.

The umbrella policy isn’t egregiously expensive, but the required auto policy minimums aren’t cheap.

But it has me concerned ref Dewey Cheatem and Howe injury attorneys.

Did I just make myself a big target since in discovery they can find out that I have a 2 Mil umbrella policy?

So to make this about aviation, let’s assume due to age or whatever that I have very low insurance limits, and I’ve done whatever I can to protect assets, put them in an irrevocable trust or whatever. In other words I’m not an easy target, isn’t it logical that I’m less of a target than if I had a big insurance policy?

Then to further the discussion, since my policy is enough to whet the ambulance chasers desire, is it more or less likely that they will get a judgement in excess of my policy limits?

In other words is does big insurance policies protect you or possibly just the opposite?

Of course I know what the insurance companies say, they sold me a 2 mil umbrella policy, but am I actually more exposed now?

[Danb]

  On 12/27/2023 at 8:56 PM, A64Pilot said:

Maybe this has been brought up already, but I recently just bought a 2 Mil umbrella policy, which excludes aviation and personal watercraft and maybe something else.

The umbrella policy isn’t egregiously expensive, but the required auto policy minimums aren’t cheap.

But it has me concerned ref Dewey Cheatem and Howe injury attorneys.

Did I just make myself a big target since in discovery they can find out that I have a 2 Mil umbrella policy?

So to make this about aviation, let’s assume due to age or whatever that I have very low insurance limits, and I’ve done whatever I can to protect assets, put them in an irrevocable trust or whatever. In other words I’m not an easy target, isn’t it logical that I’m less of a target than if I had a big insurance policy?

Then to further the discussion, since my policy is enough to whet the ambulance chasers desire, is it more or less likely that they will get a judgement in excess of my policy limits?

In other words is does big insurance policies protect you or possibly just the opposite?

Of course I know what the insurance companies say, they sold me a 2 mil umbrella policy, but am I actually more exposed now?

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If you are so am I I got a large umbrella a few years ago.

[MikeOH]

  On 12/28/2023 at 12:00 AM, bluehighwayflyer said:

There is a very direct correlation between the cost of an insurance policy and the amount of risk that it covers.  Cheap umbrella policies are cheap for a reason.  Because they cover very little risk. 

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Yes, I've pondered that very fact.  My umbrella premium is quite reasonable and I have, therefore, concluded that the maxed out underlying policies' (e.g. automobile) limits will likely be sufficient in the event I'm liable....just as you say, the umbrella carrier's premiums would be much higher if there was a significant risk that they would actually have to pay out.

[Jetpilot86]

  On 12/27/2023 at 8:56 PM, A64Pilot said:

Maybe this has been brought up already, but I recently just bought a 2 Mil umbrella policy, which excludes aviation and personal watercraft and maybe something else.

The umbrella policy isn’t egregiously expensive, but the required auto policy minimums aren’t cheap.

But it has me concerned ref Dewey Cheatem and Howe injury attorneys.

Did I just make myself a big target since in discovery they can find out that I have a 2 Mil umbrella policy?

So to make this about aviation, let’s assume due to age or whatever that I have very low insurance limits, and I’ve done whatever I can to protect assets, put them in an irrevocable trust or whatever. In other words I’m not an easy target, isn’t it logical that I’m less of a target than if I had a big insurance policy?

Then to further the discussion, since my policy is enough to whet the ambulance chasers desire, is it more or less likely that they will get a judgement in excess of my policy limits?

In other words is does big insurance policies protect you or possibly just the opposite?

Of course I know what the insurance companies say, they sold me a 2 mil umbrella policy, but am I actually more exposed now?

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Umbrella is designed to protect your net worth from a lawsuit by making the cost to the insurance company to pay worth defending not have to pay over. Otherwise you are hiring lawyers to protect your net worth. 

[StevieDee]

I’m not fully qualified to answer the question of advancing age insurance because I’m 55 and I am only in my first year of insurance.  I will however share what I’ve heard for those approaching 80 or even above 80.

1. One insurance company is being sued for age discrimination, so how the issue of age will be handled by the insurers may change in the future.

2. The insurers want to see that you keep flying.   If you can show that you continue to fly, they will likely continue to insure you.

3. Get Wings credit every year. If you’re closer to 80, do both Basic and Advanced Wings.  I note that some have been asked by insurers to do an IPC, but an IPC can be included in a Wing.  I think that the insurers don’t feel comfortable asking us to do Wings, but that is really what they are looking for.

[PT20J]

  On 12/27/2023 at 11:55 PM, bluehighwayflyer said:

Those deals were made because lawyers on the other side forced those with liability exposure to accept it whereas you could not.  It is as simple as that.  Mystery solved.  

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Do you really think a $400/hr lawyer would be involved in a $2000 insurance claim?

I happen to know a bit more about the second deal and it was more of a "you take care of this and I'll help you with that" deal.