Any opinions on this M20K 231 (N1167N)?

[M20F]

Nobody has asked the real question which is what is you mission.  If you do 3-4 long cross countries per year (which is more than most) this is too much plane logically.  Any private plane ownership is largely illogical but no need to compound a bad decision with a further bad decision. 
 
I commuted @ 30 times between 47N and KDPA for a year and then danced all over the East coast during the week (200-300hrs which sounds like not much but when you divide by 52 is a lot).  Turbos need 3-4hr legs to really show their strength and then they need O2.  For 80% of my flying the difference between my F and a 231 was  zero and for the rest it was about 30 minutes. 
 
That said I bought an F with a RayJay that I rarely use (turbo that is) because it is what I wanted.  Turbo planes in spite of what the peanut gallery here will provide to justify their own purchase have a very high maintenance cost per hour flown.  Unless a huge compelling need E/J are probably a better option then pile in the cash differential on radios, paint, interior, etc.

Buy what you want but know the deal going in.   

[MikeOH]

@oisiaa

OK. I'm going to say it: Do NOT buy this plane; be patient for the RIGHT aircraft to come along.  Especially since you are a first time owner.

Others have done a great job pointing out all the pit-falls.  Don't count on luck; sure you MIGHT not have any issues, but I wouldn't bet my money on it!

You are an experienced pilot but by your own comment have never maintained a plane YOU own. You are the maintenance chief and the variation in service 'quality' varies greatly among shops...that's a learning experience all of its own. You want to learn slowly...this plane has the earmarks of you will be FORCED to learn quickly at great expense.

My FIRST rule is buy a plane with frequent and recent use.  13 hours in 23 years??? Talk about a polar opposite.  There's a reason (probably quite a few) why this plane has not sold in 459 days (and counting)!  Please don't be the guy that finds out why.

Too much money for large risk; don't buy a pretty paint job. And, don't waste money on a pre-buy; it's really an undefined inspection and has ZERO guarantees.

Summary: "Run, Forrest, run!"

[M20F]

5 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

My FIRST rule is buy a plane with frequent and recent use.  13 hours in 23 years??? Talk about a polar opposite.  There's a reason (probably quite a few) why this plane has not sold in 459 days (and counting)!  Please don't be the guy that finds out why.

 

 

You are much better off discounting and buying a plane that hasn’t flown.  Rebuild the engine and get what you want and know what you want.  Just get it at the right price, don’t assume flying a lot makes it good.  You also don’t don’t if it was 4 legs in Q1 for 40hrs and then it sat for Q1-3. 
 
Was talking to a guy with an O-320.  Flies religiously 1hr a week even when he is sick, bored, or busy.  Changes the oil every 3 months.  Congrats it’s a Lycoming, soon to have brand new lifters and a cam. 

[MikeOH]

10 minutes ago, M20F said:

You are much better off discounting and buying a plane that hasn’t flown.

No argument there. I bought mine with a run-out engine at a great run-out price.  The plane had been recently (a few times a month) and continuously flown (13 years). I'm at 2600 TBO and still running fine.

Thing is, at $140K this plane is NOT close to being the right price.  This has "project plane" written all over it and the OP has stated he wants to fly not take on a 'project.'

[oisiaa]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

Hangar67 says that it has actively been for sale at Karlsson Aviation for 459 days during a hot market.  I wonder how many Pre Purchase Inspections it has already gone through.....

I asked. No pre-buys yet.

[MikeOH]

Just now, oisiaa said:

I asked. No pre-buys yet.

That should tell you something, right there; and it's NOT something good!

[oisiaa]

Yes, I've decided to stop pursing this plane. I added the registration to the title so hopefully the next person can read this thread.

I'm 36 years old... and wanted a plane for about 36 of those years. I'm patient and won't rush into this. The only difference is that I've moved half a continent away from family so I actually have a practical use. I'll take into consideration a non-turbo Mooney, but I really do love flying high even if only to catch a sweet tailwind a couple of times per year...but is that worth the extra $/hr for the other 95% of the time flown?

Thanks to all for your very valuable inputs. I hope to be a regular on this forum because a Mooney is likely to be in my eventual future. 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by oisiaa

[LANCECASPER]

40 minutes ago, oisiaa said:

I asked. No pre-buys yet.

For that price I can see why.

[Ragsf15e]

55 minutes ago, oisiaa said:

Yes, I've decided to stop pursing this plane. I added the registration to the title so hopefully the next person can read this thread.

I'm 36 years old... and wanted a plane for about 36 of those years. I'm patient and won't rush into this. The only difference is that I've moved half a continent away from family so I actually have a practical use. I'll take into consideration a non-turbo Mooney, but I really do love flying high even if only to catch a sweet tailwind a couple of times per year...but is that worth the extra $/hr for the other 95% of the time flown?

Thanks to all for your very valuable inputs. I hope to be a regular on this forum because a Mooney is likely to be in my eventual future. 

 

I’ve had my Mooney for about 10 years. No regrets on the F model that I got, but you really have to get your mind around spending as much as you can on the purchase (with enough in reserve for the engine, avionics and maintenance). Looking back, I almost wish I would’ve bought more airplane, because I could’ve spent a little more on the purchase at the time.
 

If you try to save money by finding a “good deal”, it’s actually a bad deal. If you don’t want a project, You really need to find an airplane priced right but at the top end of your price range.  

if you must have a turbo, and all the turbo airplanes, you can afford, are on the low end of turbo in the high end of your price range, then there’s your problem.

especially with the dogs, I might really consider an ovation or a J model. Either one might cost more than that K for a good one, but they can go plenty high to get over the mountains. Nothing wrong with the turbo if you find one priced right.

[oisiaa]

I'm looking into J models now. A J is basically a K with the Lycoming IO-360, right? Any other major differences? 

Any good resources on performance differences between the J/K? 

Edited October 22, 2023 by oisiaa

[1980Mooney]

27 minutes ago, oisiaa said:

I asked. No pre-buys yet.

Any idea when he dropped the price $10,000?
 

Considering that it’s only flown 12 hours in 21 years (which includes the ferry flight, and whatever test flights were required to pass the Annual) - And considering that the paint and interior actually looks good - this is a proverbial “Hangar Queen”. 
 

The problem with trying to buy a hangar queen from an owner that is still alive is that he is generally stuck on fond memories and plans that he had for it, which never came to fruition.  Logic may not prevail.  When a widow sells a hangar queen, there is generally no emotional tie, and she usually wants to get rid of it as soon as possible.  
 

Think about it – considering the exterior condition this plane must’ve been in a hanger. If the owner paid a measly $200 a month for 21 years then he paid about $50,000 for it to sit. There may have been annuals in the early years that it was sitting may have been paying for some insurance the entire time.  That could be another $25,000 or more.  Now it’s been for sale for a year and a half and no PPI (likely no serious offers).
 

The owner has no urgency to sell.  He may cling to unrealistic expectations for another 10 years.  
 

And don’t spend any money on a thorough PPI thinking that you can use that as negotiating tool to get the price down to a realistic level. You might as well pile up a couple thousand dollars and set it on fire. You should only spend money on a PPI in order to confirm, your understanding of the likely condition and agreed upon terms of sale. The likely condition of this engine is run out and in need of overhaul. 

[LANCECASPER]

3 minutes ago, oisiaa said:

I'm looking into J models now. A J is basically a K with the Lycoming IO-360, right? Any other major differences? 

Any good resources on performance differences between the J/K? 

 

[1980Mooney]

8 minutes ago, oisiaa said:

I'm looking into J models now. A J is basically a K with the Lycoming IO-360, right? Any other major differences? 

Any good resources on performance differences between the J/K? 

 

[1980Mooney]

11 minutes ago, oisiaa said:

I'm looking into J models now. A J is basically a K with the Lycoming IO-360, right? Any other major differences? 

Any good resources on performance differences between the J/K? 

https://www.aviationconsumer.com/aircraftreviews/to-turbo-or-not/
 

[EricJ]

16 minutes ago, oisiaa said:

I'm looking into J models now. A J is basically a K with the Lycoming IO-360, right? Any other major differences? 

Any good resources on performance differences between the J/K? 

Yes, essentially the same airframe as a K, the J has a four-cylinder Lycoming IO-360.   It's lighter than the Continental and makes essentially the same power down low.

Basically, the engine is the significant difference between the two.  

[Ragsf15e]

14 minutes ago, oisiaa said:

I'm looking into J models now. A J is basically a K with the Lycoming IO-360, right? Any other major differences? 

Any good resources on performance differences between the J/K? 

Cliff notes:

J-~150-165ktas

8.5-12gph

Lean of peak (efficient) or rich of peak (slightly faster) easy

No built in O2

Simple maintenance 

Will get you into the low-mid teens in altitude if you must, but best around 6-10k

neither J or K are deice equipped (except a few encore Ks) so IFR is fine but no ice

A k can get over some weather better

[Pinecone]

Then there is the M20K 252.

I do 175 KTAS at 17,000 on 10.1 GPH.

 

[Ragsf15e]

1 minute ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

And eight gallons of fuel capacity.  The J has 64 and the K 72.  

True, although either are probably enough for ~6 hours total, 5 hours flying with 1 hour reserves is more butt time than most people want.  Not everyone feels that way…

[oisiaa]

It's tough for me. I come from a style of flying where I can fly at FL410 at 500KTAS without paying for the gas or maintenance so of course I want it all. It's difficult to decided what I want out of an airplane when my primary mission is cross country. 

I really liked the 109 gallon tanks on the M20K this thread is about because I have no issues with 8 hour legs and was fantasizing about sky hooking it at FL230 and going from the Pacific to Atlantic non-stop with a modest tailwind. 

Edited October 22, 2023 by oisiaa

[Fly Boomer]

24 minutes ago, oisiaa said:

It's tough for me. I come from a style of flying where I can fly at FL410 at 500KTAS without paying for the gas or maintenance so of course I want it all. It's difficult to decided what I want out of an airplane when my primary mission is cross country. 

I really liked the 109 gallon tanks on the M20K this thread is about because I have no issues with 8 hour legs and was fantasizing about sky hooking it at FL230 and going from the Pacific to Atlantic non-stop with a modest tailwind. 

I certainly don't advise doing it, but the M20K 252 (between the M20K 231 and M20K Encore) is certificated up to 28,000.  It has factory oxygen, but if there is a major hiccup with the oxygen at that altitude, it takes a long time to get down.  In the mid-20s you can get some blazing cruise speeds -- especially with a tail wind and, as I'm sure you know, sometimes you get some doozies at the higher altitudes.

[EricJ]

18 minutes ago, oisiaa said:

It's tough for me. I come from a style of flying where I can fly at FL410 at 500KTAS without paying for the gas or maintenance so of course I want it all. It's difficult to decided what I want out of an airplane when my primary mission is cross country. 

I really liked the 109 gallon tanks on the M20K this thread is about because I have no issues with 8 hour legs and was fantasizing about sky hooking it at FL230 and going from the Pacific to Atlantic non-stop with a modest tailwind. 

Useful load can be an issue, moreso on the K's, to use all of that fuel.

I have a J and have been around the southwest and northern US with it quite a bit, around and over the mountains, etc.    There've been a few times when a turbo would have been nice, but got by without it just fine, and rarely need the full capacity of the 64 gallon tanks.  That's well over six hours of fuel, which is far more flying than my bladder and butt want to do reliably at a time behind a recip engine.   Mine has a UL of over 1000 lbs, so it's really nice to be able to trade that off with range and payload. 

[Ragsf15e]

44 minutes ago, oisiaa said:

It's tough for me. I come from a style of flying where I can fly at FL410 at 500KTAS without paying for the gas or maintenance so of course I want it all. It's difficult to decided what I want out of an airplane when my primary mission is cross country. 

I really liked the 109 gallon tanks on the M20K this thread is about because I have no issues with 8 hour legs and was fantasizing about sky hooking it at FL230 and going from the Pacific to Atlantic non-stop with a modest tailwind. 

You’ll eventually find that O2 is a major issue in these small planes.  One you never worry about in your jet.

If you fly above 10k without it, you’ll eventually feel crappy.  If you’re on it at 25k and it fails, will you know in time? And will you be able to get back down or do you have a backup?  Does your wife like an uncomfortable mask for several hours?  Also, it can be expensive to refill and maintain.

Before i’m flamed, of course planes with O2 are good and I definitely use a portable system, but it’s definitely one more thing to consider, especially really high (above 20ish).

Edited October 23, 2023 by Ragsf15e

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, oisiaa said:

It's tough for me. I come from a style of flying where I can fly at FL410 at 500KTAS without paying for the gas or maintenance so of course I want it all. It's difficult to decided what I want out of an airplane when my primary mission is cross country. 

I really liked the 109 gallon tanks on the M20K this thread is about because I have no issues with 8 hour legs and was fantasizing about sky hooking it at FL230 and going from the Pacific to Atlantic non-stop with a modest tailwind. 

And when you fly back from Atlantic to the Pacific you will generally be flying down low with all the "non-turbos" due to headwinds.  You might go a little faster but at the cost of more fuel burn rate.

Tomorrow go to FlightAware and look at where pilots fly in the real world - not what is said here.  You find a lot of turbo owners stay below 12.  Passengers tend to not like O2 cannulas and hate masks..  

If you want to find at what altitudes turbo Mooney's fly in the real world Just click here

http://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/M20T

For non turbo Mooney's click here

http://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/M20P

For Cirrus SR22 click here

http://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/SR22

For Cirrus SR22T click here

https://www.flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/S22T

For Bonanza B36TC click here

https://www.flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/BT36

For Turbo Centurions click here

https://www.flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/T210

Go here for all the other types

https://www.flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/

[oisiaa]

43 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

And when you fly back from Atlantic to the Pacific you will generally be flying down low with all the "non-turbos" due to headwinds.  You might go a little faster but at the cost of more fuel burn rate.

Tomorrow go to FlightAware and look at where pilots fly in the real world - not what is said here.  You find a lot of turbo owners stay below 12.  Passengers tend to not like O2 cannulas and hate masks..  

If you want to find at what altitudes turbo Mooney's fly in the real world Just click here

http://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/M20T

For non turbo Mooney's click here

http://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/M20P

For Cirrus SR22 click here

http://flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/SR22

For Cirrus SR22T click here

https://www.flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/S22T

For Bonanza B36TC click here

https://www.flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/BT36

For Turbo Centurions click here

https://www.flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/T210

Go here for all the other types

https://www.flightaware.com/live/aircrafttype/

Fascinating. I saw only one turbo Mooney above oxygen levels. 

[MikeOH]

2 hours ago, oisiaa said:

It's tough for me. I come from a style of flying where I can fly at FL410 at 500KTAS without paying for the gas or maintenance so of course I want it all. It's difficult to decided what I want out of an airplane when my primary mission is cross country. 

I really liked the 109 gallon tanks on the M20K this thread is about because I have no issues with 8 hour legs and was fantasizing about sky hooking it at FL230 and going from the Pacific to Atlantic non-stop with a modest tailwind. 

Well, if your standard is FL410 and 500KTAS...you're in the wrong forum! (Try LearJets or Gulfstreams) I think there's a slightly used F4 Phantom for sale here in SoCal....https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Jets&make=MCDONNELL+DOUGLAS&model=F-4+PHANTOM&listing_id=2315633&s-type=aircraft

Sorry, but the key word in your second paragraph is "fantasizing"  I assure you that very few GA pilots are up for 8 hour legs (certainly NOT me!) and I can't fathom a GF/Spouse/SO EVER signing up for that

Be realistic with what your typical mission really is...and how often are you really going to fly coast-to-coast non-stop?