Engine preheat on the ramp - options

[generalaviationguru]

Due to an unscrupulous FBO manager, our airplane is going to be stuck on the ramp for the foreseeable future, despite a hanger spot sitting open.  Our F was previously based in NYC and has a very nice engine preheater installed (full engine, not just the sump).  

we are trying to come up with options to power it out on the ramp. The parking spot is not reasonably close to any buildings on the airport and is a 45 minute drive from the house in the opposite direction of all of our other activities.  
 

We would love some ideas.
 

We have thought of:

1. chaining a generator to the tiedown and asking the staff to crank it up in the night before.

2. Buying one of those battery packs people use for tailgating, and then asking someone at FBO to turn it on the night before.  (problem is how do you get recharged and back out to the plane)

 

Or are we just crazy and Should we just deal with the consequences of being parked Outside…

[generalaviationguru]

*we are in ATL area, do this is only necessary 4-6 weeks out of the year.  But that is enough I think to plan ahead 

[Fly Boomer]

30 minutes ago, generalaviationguru said:

Due to an unscrupulous FBO manager, our airplane is going to be stuck on the ramp for the foreseeable future, despite a hanger spot sitting open.  Our F was previously based in NYC and has a very nice engine preheater installed (full engine, not just the sump).  

we are trying to come up with options to power it out on the ramp. The parking spot is not reasonably close to any buildings on the airport and is a 45 minute drive from the house in the opposite direction of all of our other activities.  
 

We would love some ideas.
 

We have thought of:

1. chaining a generator to the tiedown and asking the staff to crank it up in the night before.

2. Buying one of those battery packs people use for tailgating, and then asking someone at FBO to turn it on the night before.  (problem is how do you get recharged and back out to the plane)

 

Or are we just crazy and Should we just deal with the consequences of being parked Outside…

Well, my parents once threw a tarp over the cowling of our PA-12 sitting on a frozen lake in Minnesota.  The tarp was large enough to leave skirts all the way down to the ground.  Then they built a small fire underneath.  I don't recommend it.

I think the only two possibilities are to bring the electricity to the airplane, or take the airplane to the electricity.

[Fly Boomer]

37 minutes ago, generalaviationguru said:

we are trying to come up with options to power it out on the ramp. The parking spot is not reasonably close to any buildings on the airport and is a 45 minute drive from the house in the opposite direction of all of our other activities.  

Borrow an F-150 Lightening and leave it (locked up) on the ramp next to the airplane.  The 2.4 kW 120-volt outlets might do it but, just to be safe, try to get the 9.6 kW version.

[Fritz1]

Try propane heater like Red Dragon, may take an hour to preheat, but you are independent from the FBO, generator on ramp will probably get away, battery required to run electric preheater over night will be prohibitively huge

[bcg]

I call the FBO and ask them to have the line guys pull it up to a building and plug it in for mine. They're happy to do it for me but, I bring them food and stuff.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[generalaviationguru]

9 minutes ago, bcg said:

I call the FBO and ask them to have the line guys pull it up to a building and plug it in for mine. They're happy to do it for me but, I bring them food and stuff.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk
 

Yes I suppose I should get in touch with the FBO and see what they can do for us. 

[generalaviationguru]

2 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Borrow an F-150 Lightening and leave it (locked up) on the ramp next to the airplane.  The 2.4 kW 120-volt outlets might do it but, just to be safe, try to get the 9.6 kW version.

HA!  I’ll have to take a loan out on the Mooney to afford one of those!

[M20F]

Just run an extension cord. 

[generalaviationguru]

Just now, M20F said:

Just run an extension cord. 

Too far from all buildings, unfortunately.  And running cords two football fields across the ramp is asking for trouble.  

[dzeleski]

When I was tied down outside I brought a generator, a meal, and some music. Plugged it in and hung out for 45min to an hour. That was enough time to get the oil and cylinders into the 40-50s which was enough to get it started.

I have a reiff XP system which works really quickly especially if you have a sealed cowl cover. You can see the heat times here: http://www.reiffpreheat.com/FAQ.htm#QA2

Do you know which system you have installed?

[generalaviationguru]

3 minutes ago, dzeleski said:

When I was tied down outside I brought a generator, a meal, and some music. Plugged it in and hung out for 45min to an hour. That was enough time to get the oil and cylinders into the 40-50s which was enough to get it started.

I have a reiff XP system which works really quickly especially if you have a sealed cowl cover. You can see the heat times here: http://www.reiffpreheat.com/FAQ.htm#QA2

Do you know which system you have installed?

@dzeleskiI have looked in the logbooks, all the way back to the engine overhaul and can’t find it.  I assume it was installed with the F to J conversion which was in the late 1970s.  
 

The plane is in annual.  With the cowl off, I observed the following: 

3 prong heater plug branches off 5 ways, one to sump and 4 to the cylinders.  (One for each at the base of the cylinder near the case)

Any clue which model this might be?

[PeteMc]

There is a flight school that had a few planes near my tiedown.  They had a generator planted in the middle of the planes with extension cords.  I'm not sure who turned it on early in the morning, but it was always on any time I got there and I think they just let it go until it ran out of fuel.  By then the planes were all warmed up with the engine heater or because they had been flown.

There are also some Cell switches that obviously work in hangars, but I wonder if there are Generators that would start with a closure switch from one of these Cell devices.  It maybe could turn on your Generator via a phone call and hour or so before your flight.

 

[AdamJD]

I have this same problem in Maryland. I put two marine batteries daisy chained in my storage box (if you are allowed to have one), an inverter and a thermocube. I cover the cowl in moving blankets and plug in the night before if I’m flying in the AM. By morning the batteries are usually dead, but the oil is still fairly warm. I have a sump heater. 
 

I usually just take the batteries home and charge them after I return. But if you need the plane more frequently, buy 4 batteries and always come to the airport with a freshly charged pair. 

[generalaviationguru]

1 minute ago, AdamJD said:

I have this same problem in Maryland. I put two marine batteries daisy chained in my storage box (if you are allowed to have one), an inverter and a thermocube. I cover the cowl in moving blankets and plug in the night before if I’m flying in the AM. By morning the batteries are usually dead, but the oil is still fairly warm. I have a sump heater. 
 

I usually just take the batteries home and charge them after I return. But if you need the plane more frequently, buy 4 batteries and always come to the airport with a freshly charged pair. 

Great idea.  We own in a partnership though, so we need something that can stay with the plane or in the currently flying partners car when they have the plane.   Gasoline Generator might be the move for us. 

[A64Pilot]

Buy a 2.2 KW Honda, buy a Honda don’t save money here. This was the cheapest place to buy one shipping was free maybe still is. I ran one every day on the boat for years, nothing is as reliable and the Honda will make more than rated power, cheaper ones will not even make rated power. The Honda would start a 16K BTU AC where a Yamaha or others would not.

https://www.mayberrys.com/honda-generators-eu2200i-for-sale-pennsylvania-new-jersey-new-york--honda-generators-eu2200i

If you have a generator, then you have something for when the power goes out at home and or you need to run a compressor at the airport or any number of things.

I don’t think leaving it and asking someone to start it is a good idea these things grow legs faster than a good chain saw.

The Honda is 18 amps at 120V, you can only get 15 amps from a regular wall outlet so it can power anything that can be run off of a normal wall outlet.

20 Amp wall outlets exist, but they aren’t common.

[generalaviationguru]

1 minute ago, A64Pilot said:

Buy a 2.2 KW Honda, buy a Honda don’t save money here. This was the cheapest place to buy one shipping was free maybe still is. I ran one every day on the boat for years, nothing is as reliable and the Honda will make more than rated power, cheaper ones will not even make rated power. The Honda would start a 16K BTU AC where a Yamaha or others would not.

https://www.mayberrys.com/honda-generators-eu2200i-for-sale-pennsylvania-new-jersey-new-york--honda-generators-eu2200i

If you have a generator, then you have something for when the power goes out at home and or you need to run a compressor at the airport or any number of things.

I don’t think leaving it and asking someone to start it is a good idea these things grow legs faster than a good chain saw.

The Honda is 18 amps at 120V, you can only get 15 amps from a regular wall outlet so it can power anything that can be run off of a normal wall outlet.

20 Amp wall outlets exist, but they aren’t common.

Thanks.  We are co-owners, so it would have to be left with the plane when the plane is not in service. The airport is pretty far away drive wise for all of us, so we might have to take our chances with the chains. Hopefully there aren’t too many criminals on the airport ground

[hubcap]

Who besides me wants to know about the unscrupulous airport manager who makes people park on the ramp while hangars sit empty? Is he saving it for a buddy?

[A64Pilot]

On batteries, run the numbers. My golf cart has 4 12V 100 amp batteries, so in theory with one HEAVY golf cart battery if you pull 15 amps at 12V and assume 100% inverter efficiency it will be stone dead in 5 hours, if you use 50% SOC as your stopping point and you should if you don’t want to be buying batteries at least every year then it will be done in 2.5 hours.

By the time you buy two good deep cycle batteries and a big pure sine wave inverter your up to generator money or close and your humping a rather large amount of weight, probably would end up with a wagon to haul it all

[generalaviationguru]

Just now, hubcap said:

Who besides me wants to know about the unscrupulous airport manager who makes people park on the ramp while hangars sit empty? Is he saving it for a buddy?

It was actually a buddy saving it for me!  He took his Comanche 260 out to California, and offered me his spot.  We took this to the manager, and he said he would work with us… Guaranteed customer!

The airport we were supposed to be at has shared hanger space (closer drive to all of our home - so we wouldn’t even have this leaving a generator outside problem).  The FBO manager (large chain FBO that caters to executive jet traffic) has not responded to my emails or calls after months and fell back on his word regarding the paperwork for the hangar spot.  So it sits empty.  

[generalaviationguru]

1 minute ago, A64Pilot said:

On batteries, run the numbers. My golf cart has 4 12V 100 amp batteries, so in theory with one HEAVY golf cart battery if you pull 15 amps at 12V and assume 100% inverter efficiency it will be stone dead in 5 hours, if you use 50% SOC as your stopping point and you should if you don’t want to be buying batteries at least every year then it will be done in 2.5 hours.

By the time you buy two good deep cycle batteries and a big pure sine wave inverter your up to generator money or close and your humping a rather large amount of weight, probably would end up with a wagon to haul it all

Great point 

[A64Pilot]

6 minutes ago, generalaviationguru said:

Thanks.  We are co-owners, so it would have to be left with the plane when the plane is not in service. The airport is pretty far away drive wise for all of us, so we might have to take our chances with the chains. Hopefully there aren’t too many criminals on the airport ground

They can be chained down, and there are a million different covers for them to keep rain off. I still have mine, it worked fine on a boat in salt water for three years

[AdamJD]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

On batteries, run the numbers. My golf cart has 4 12V 100 amp batteries, so in theory with one HEAVY golf cart battery if you pull 15 amps at 12V and assume 100% inverter efficiency it will be stone dead in 5 hours, if you use 50% SOC as your stopping point and you should if you don’t want to be buying batteries at least every year then it will be done in 2.5 hours.

By the time you buy two good deep cycle batteries and a big pure sine wave inverter your up to generator money or close and your humping a rather large amount of weight, probably would end up with a wagon to haul it all

I have two 12v 100ah batteries. So far so good as far as battery life. I keep them cycled as I use these in the summer to power a trolling motor for a kayak. Together, they last 7ish hours depending on temps (I use a thermocube).  So by 6 am the batteries may die, but the oil does go right back to ambient temps. My oil temps usually aren’t lower than 60-70 when I get there. 
 

Generator is great if you can make it work. For me, I can keep the batteries, inverter etc. in a locked box even when using them. The downside is hauling them back to the house when I need to charge them. It’s a good workout. 
 

edit:  $70 for the inverter, $130 each for the batteries from O’Reilly. So $330 total. 

[larryb]

You would not need a pure sine wave inverter, the heaters don't care how clean the power is. 

With the battery setup one could use a cellswitch to turn on the inverter remotely 3 hours before flight. It would require some hacking to power the cellswitch directly from the battery so the inverter would not have to run during standby. But it could done relatively easily.  

[GeeBee]

Get an Aerotherm Alien Tube heater and a Honda Ex generator. Boom, heated in 30 minutes.