Guidance for new pilot direction

[MattCW]

Hello everyone, I'm finishing my PPL, and looking at what to do next. I soloed at 40 hours and expect to complete my checkride between 60 and 70. After that, I'll get a complex endorsement, then do my instrument. At my current flight school, the complex plane (Piper Arrow) is IFR certified, but without a GPS so I'll be able to rack up some complex time while doing instrument. Eventually I'll get my commercial, but that's probably a year or more away given the time requirement. I'm still a ways away from being in a position to buy a plane, but I still want to get an idea of what route to follow. I'm posting here, so obviously, I have a Mooney in mind. Every time I look at performance specs, I come back to the M20 line. But that's where things start to make less sense for me. My mission is 1-2 adults, with reasonable luggage, as far as I can on 3-4 hour legs for an aircraft price of $250k. I'm based in Atlanta, GA so short-term, I won't be transiting the Rockies, but longer-term that's definitely the plan since for various reasons, I don't fly commercially. Here's why I want some early guidance. From browsing the sales sites, it seems $250k could get me a Bravo which for my long-term mission (190+ktas cruise, 600nm range, into the flight levels for weather and winds, FIKI) seems to be the best bang for the buck, both in terms of acquisition cost and operating costs. But is that where I should start? Or would it be better to do something like a cheaper J for a few years?

I know "better" is subjective so let me clarify a little. Legally, as soon I get my high performance endorsement too, I could grab a Bravo and yeet myself into the flight levels. But I'm guessing insurance would laugh at a ~150hr pilot wanting to do that. So, would I be better invested in going with the J model? Stepping up to a 231? Then later seriously looking at a 252 or Bravo? Or just better to wait an extra year, build general complex [retract] time (at my current school or a club), and go for the Bravo? I've heard that most insurance requires Mooney-specific training before being allowed to fly solo, but is that for each sub-model? Or will any training in say a J, count toward a K or Bravo? Insurance aside, is there any proficiency/learning/cost benefit in starting with a J? It would of course be my first owned airplane so I'm sure I'll stumble in places even if it was a Cessna 150. I definitely stumbled in my early years of vehicle ownership. Would it even be a good consideration to drop down to a C, E, or F for a while? One advantage of an earlier model is no high performance endorsement needed and with the cheaper plane, I might could be in a position to buy it much sooner after I finish my instrument rating. Any advice? Am I asking all these questions way too early? Thank you!

[toto]

If you haven't been in a Mooney yet, I would strongly recommend finding one at your local airport and sitting in it.  The seating position is much different from the Piper, and it's not necessarily for everyone.

[DCarlton]

My two cents….  With your budget, and experience, I would keep $50k in my pocket for contingencies and potential upgrades and buy a really nice ‘87 or later J.  You’ll be satisfied for years and building time with minimal maintenance and fuel expenses.  Just go fly.  Don’t buy a C, E or F if you can afford a nice J.  

Just to be clear, there is nothing wrong with a C, E, or F.  In fact there’s plenty to appreciate with each model.  I just wish I could have afforded and started out with a later model J 20 years ago.  

[Hank]

Personally, I would NOT go straight to the Bravo. Not only does it fly high,mfast and far (way further than 600 nm, even my little C beats that), but there is significant engine management you must learn and observe less you destroy a 90AMU engine . . . .

Anything C through J will get you going and you maynfind that you don't need a FIKI turbo Mooney.

Put your location below your avatar, maybe someone can show you a Mooney and talk about them over lunch or a cold drink.

[MB65E]

Woah, Slow down to go fast! Finish your training. I would invest in the training vs the airplane at this point. Everything is so inflated right now. The airplane will come naturally. You mentioned your mission, but what are your flying goals? Hobby, bucket list, something to do, or  this was your dream at some point? Please don’t initially consider airplane ownership as a means of Transporation or you will be let down. Once the training is there, the airplane is nicely maintained, and the missions realign, then it becomes fun!

just some thoughts from my experiences. 
-Matt

[Pinecone]

I went through similar thoughts on the mission (much higher time and ratings and such).  I ended up with a 252.  Once I read about the 252, I knew if I went Mooney, I would end up with one, so why do it step by step?  So I got the 252.

The 252 is almost as fast as the big engine Mooneys, but for about 2/3 the fuel flow.  I am in the 170 KTAS range at about 10 GPH.  Lower empty weight, so I have a very high useful load (over 1100).  And with the Monroy tanks, a lot of options.  Full fuel is about 9 hours.  Not that I want to fly that long in one hop, but if I stop for cheap fuel, I can really load up.

I will fly into the mid teens even for fairly short trips.   You are above the turbulence and most weather, nice and cool in the summer, you are talking to center, so less frequency changes.  Very few other people there, most GA is under 10K and the turbines are above 20K .  9.1 hours last weeked, I had 2 traffic call outs.

The only thing I would like to have is TKS system.

A J is a very nice airplane.  I would not have complained if I had gotten a nice J.

I use my airplane for fun travel.  So no expectations of getting to X at Y time.  If I end up somewhere else, I will enjoy checking it out.  Last weekend, I flew to Decatur, AL.  There was an local airshow and another person from here on MS was going to be there.  I was going to stay the weekend and do the NSA museum in Huntsville.  But there was weather moving through, so I left Sat evening and spent the night in Roanoke.  I could have come all the way home, but decided that all day at the airshow, then 4.5 hours flying, to arrive around dusk, with the Canadian wildfire smoke was NOT good ADM.  So a stop about half way, a nice dinner, a good nights sleep and home around lunchtime.

 

[WilliamR]

Matt, since you're at PDK, first I would suggest getting on the hangar and tie down wait list. The hangars are not expensive for the location, but the wait list is long (many years). Tie downs are likely still on a waitlist. No matter what plane you get, you will want that.

Second, buy your last plane first. While a turbo Mooney is a large transition from say an 172/Archer, it's a big jump, but not insurmountable. There are people who jump from their PPL training right into an Acclaim. Training and commitment is key here. Cruising in the flight levels is both easier and harder just like instrument flying.

Third, even jumping from a J to a K or an M, insurance will ask for training when stepping up.  At your flight time, with no retract time, insurance will want at least 25 hours of retract and make specific training out of the gate. Living that dream with a new owner now with a J on the NW ramp.

Do consider operating costs. A Bravo all in (maintenance accrual, fuel, ins, hangar, etc.) will be a little north of $300/hr. My 252 costs all in about $270/hr to fly. There's a thread floating around here of operating costs where I think I posted my financial model. Try and find that.

I'm on the NE ramp with a 252 and live very close. I do a fair amount of checkouts/instruction including Mooneys on the field. 

Feel free to shoot me a PM. You're asking the right questions. Never hurts to be thinking two or three steps ahead. Happy to answer any questions or show you a few Mooneys.

William

 

[Niko182]

FWIW I jumped into an eagle/ovation at 130 hours. The learning curve is steep, but it can be done. Insurance was easier back then than it is now (this was 2018). The biggest thing as others have stated with the turbo 360 and 540/550 variants is engine management. The turbos are more fragile than the NA 550, but it's still easy to ruin a 550. If it were me, I'd probably go with the plane you want to end up with once you want to start your Instrument (seems like a bravo). I thoroughly enjoyed learning instrument in my own aircraft. And find an instructor that has Mooney time, and time in a turbo if you end up going the K, M, or TN route. The short, mid, and long bodies all fly similarly imo, but someone that doesn't know a turbo will fry your engine pretty quickly if they don't know what they're doing. just my 2 cents.

 

[Mufflerbearing]

There is a lot of good suggestions here.  Wise council.

I bought my Screaming Eagle mid way through my PPL.  Something I have never regretted.  It has been fun and with the FIKI and IFR, it's well suited for great dispatch.  We fly this NA plane throughout the west with no issues.  One latest flight was to a funeral for my aunt last week in Alamosa Colorado.  The plane did well with 4 adults, bags and fuel to get to Provo UT.  Of course, leaving early in the morning to beat the thunder clouds and to ensure a lower DA was key.

Personally, I would love a Bravo.  I just can't see the need over my plane.  However, if I ever rode/flew one, that may twist my mind to a totally different opinion.

[MattCW]

Thanks everyone for the replies! I'm sorry it's taken so long for me to get back with everyone, but I've been reading a lot of other 231/252/Bravo topics on the forums in light of all the information, as Mufflerbearing says, lots of good suggestions!

On 6/13/2023 at 7:05 AM, MB65E said:

Woah, Slow down to go fast! Finish your training. I would invest in the training vs the airplane at this point. Everything is so inflated right now. The airplane will come naturally. You mentioned your mission, but what are your flying goals? Hobby, bucket list, something to do, or  this was your dream at some point? Please don’t initially consider airplane ownership as a means of Transporation or you will be let down. Once the training is there, the airplane is nicely maintained, and the missions realign, then it becomes fun!

just some thoughts from my experiences. 
-Matt

Yea, I admit I'm putting the cart in front of the horse considering I haven't even started instrument yet. I'm just in the weird place in between my written and my checkride where there's not much I can do between lessons so maybe I'm letting my dreaming get the better of me. My goals are hobby/vacation transportation. Meaning I won't necessarily be trying to support a business by flying, but will absolutely be using the plane to get from A to B to do fun things. Alaska is high on my list (hence the turbo for options crossing the Rockies in particular) and based on a recent thread by someone else, it seems transatlantic might not be out of the question either.

On 6/13/2023 at 12:13 PM, WilliamR said:

Matt, since you're at PDK, first I would suggest getting on the hangar and tie down wait list. The hangars are not expensive for the location, but the wait list is long (many years). Tie downs are likely still on a waitlist. No matter what plane you get, you will want that.

Second, buy your last plane first. While a turbo Mooney is a large transition from say an 172/Archer, it's a big jump, but not insurmountable. There are people who jump from their PPL training right into an Acclaim. Training and commitment is key here. Cruising in the flight levels is both easier and harder just like instrument flying.

Third, even jumping from a J to a K or an M, insurance will ask for training when stepping up.  At your flight time, with no retract time, insurance will want at least 25 hours of retract and make specific training out of the gate. Living that dream with a new owner now with a J on the NW ramp.

Do consider operating costs. A Bravo all in (maintenance accrual, fuel, ins, hangar, etc.) will be a little north of $300/hr. My 252 costs all in about $270/hr to fly. There's a thread floating around here of operating costs where I think I posted my financial model. Try and find that.

I'm on the NE ramp with a 252 and live very close. I do a fair amount of checkouts/instruction including Mooneys on the field. 

Feel free to shoot me a PM. You're asking the right questions. Never hurts to be thinking two or three steps ahead. Happy to answer any questions or show you a few Mooneys.

William

 

Hi William, it's nice to "meet" someone local! I say I'm based at PDK currently since that's where my flight school is. If I buy an airplane, I'd like to base out of FTY, but if I really have to for a while, then CVC, LZU, FFC, and RYY are my next options in that order. We're on the North Ramp, there's actually a beautiful red and white J that parks right behind the school planes, I was admiring it a lot while waiting on my instructor yesterday. I'll definitely be going into purchasing with a bit of retract time though. Once I finish my PPL, I'll do a complex endorsement in the school's Piper Arrow, then hopefully use that some for instrument training and then hopefully some time building before I buy so I wouldn't be buying with 0 retract/complex time.

$300/hr for a Bravo for everything isn't too bad for an owned aircraft. Right now I'm spending $225/hr for flight training (wet plane plus instructor). I've been considering how to structure my costs and will probably start some kind of savings account that I "pay" myself every time I fly (minus direct costs like fuel, tie down, insurance, etc) just to make sure I have a pool to draw from for maintenance.

When I get to that point, I'll definitely be back in touch for training, thank you!

[1980Mooney]

On 6/12/2023 at 9:12 PM, MattCW said:

Hello everyone, I'm finishing my PPL, and looking at what to do next. I soloed at 40 hours and expect to complete my checkride between 60 and 70. After that, I'll get a complex endorsement, then do my instrument. At my current flight school, the complex plane (Piper Arrow) is IFR certified, but without a GPS so I'll be able to rack up some complex time while doing instrument. Eventually I'll get my commercial, but that's probably a year or more away given the time requirement. I'm still a ways away from being in a position to buy a plane, but I still want to get an idea of what route to follow. I'm posting here, so obviously, I have a Mooney in mind. Every time I look at performance specs, I come back to the M20 line. But that's where things start to make less sense for me. My mission is 1-2 adults, with reasonable luggage, as far as I can on 3-4 hour legs for an aircraft price of $250k. I'm based in Atlanta, GA so short-term, I won't be transiting the Rockies, but longer-term that's definitely the plan since for various reasons, I don't fly commercially. Here's why I want some early guidance. From browsing the sales sites, it seems $250k could get me a Bravo which for my long-term mission (190+ktas cruise, 600nm range, into the flight levels for weather and winds, FIKI) seems to be the best bang for the buck, both in terms of acquisition cost and operating costs. But is that where I should start? Or would it be better to do something like a cheaper J for a few years?

I know "better" is subjective so let me clarify a little. Legally, as soon I get my high performance endorsement too, I could grab a Bravo and yeet myself into the flight levels. But I'm guessing insurance would laugh at a ~150hr pilot wanting to do that. So, would I be better invested in going with the J model? Stepping up to a 231? Then later seriously looking at a 252 or Bravo? Or just better to wait an extra year, build general complex [retract] time (at my current school or a club), and go for the Bravo? I've heard that most insurance requires Mooney-specific training before being allowed to fly solo, but is that for each sub-model? Or will any training in say a J, count toward a K or Bravo? Insurance aside, is there any proficiency/learning/cost benefit in starting with a J? It would of course be my first owned airplane so I'm sure I'll stumble in places even if it was a Cessna 150. I definitely stumbled in my early years of vehicle ownership. Would it even be a good consideration to drop down to a C, E, or F for a while? One advantage of an earlier model is no high performance endorsement needed and with the cheaper plane, I might could be in a position to buy it much sooner after I finish my instrument rating. Any advice? Am I asking all these questions way too early? Thank you!

I think getting Mooney specific training will be the easy part. I did the same thing as @Mufflerbearing and bought my Mooney (an M20J) before I finished my PPL.   Then before I got my instrument ticket I upgraded it to 300 hp similar to a Screaming Eagle/Ovation.  Of course that was in the 90's and insurance was not a big issue.

However have you looked at the cost to insure a Mooney now days?...especially a Bravo?

Here are some online insurance quotes for a used Beechcraft Bonanza G36.   The Bravo insurance might be a little less - ask @Parker_Woodruff 

A used G36 will cost a student pilot over $20,000/year for insurance and still about $14,000 per year after you get your PPL.

https://sunsetais.com/airplanes/beechcraft/beechcraft-bonanza-g36/

[Parker_Woodruff]

You should be able to get a decent insurance policy at a (relatively) decent price if you get a Mooney at $250,000 or less...  Above $250K and things can get tougher.

6 seat airplanes will be tougher and depending on the value you could be looking at some insurance carriers with pretty big coverage limitations.

All are doable though...

There are a lot of "it depends" statements as well as disclaimers I need to make for these situations.  So call me or a reputable broker that can give you a good plan for good insurance and reasonable (all things considered) pricing.

[hubcap]

I know I am in the minority on this subject, but I am not an advocate of buying a Mooney until more experience has been acquired.

A new Mooney guy was killed right after takeoff, along with his SO at KOJC a few years ago. He had owned the plane less than a month if I am not mistaken. I believe he was flying a M20S, but nevertheless, he made a mistake in a high performance airplane and it was fatal.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/01/mooney-m20s-eagle-n602tf-fatal-accident.html

Don't misunderstand, I love my Mooney but I would prefer to beat the crap out of  a C172 that belonged to the flight school rather than my Mooney. Get some experience and then buy a Mooney. Just my .02

[toto]

7 hours ago, hubcap said:

I know I am in the minority on this subject, but I am not an advocate of buying a Mooney until more experience has been acquired.

A new Mooney guy was killed right after takeoff, along with his SO at KOJC a few years ago. He had owned the plane less than a month if I am not mistaken. I believe he was flying a M20S, but nevertheless, he made a mistake in a high performance airplane and it was fatal.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/01/mooney-m20s-eagle-n602tf-fatal-accident.html

Don't misunderstand, I love my Mooney but I would prefer to beat the crap out of  a C172 that belonged to the flight school rather than my Mooney. Get some experience and then buy a Mooney. Just my .02

Not to fully change the subject, but if I remember correctly the OJC pilot was there looking at a new M600. 

[1980Mooney]

32 minutes ago, toto said:

Not to fully change the subject, but if I remember correctly the OJC pilot was there looking at a new M600. 

Correct. He had just test flown the M600. He was also taking a prescription muscle relaxant and Zofran. 

[Pinecone]

My thoughts are, that a low time pilot who buys a Mooney, especially pre-PPL, will get a lot of training in a high performance airplane.

And I am a great believer that learning in a higher performance airplane is a very good thing.   I did my PPL in a Grumman Tiger on a 2000 foot runway.  For some reason, I don't have issues with shorter runways. 

Yes, it can extend your training time.  And it may not work for some people.  But it can be a VERY good thing. 

[hubcap]

14 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Correct. He had just test flown the M600. He was also taking a prescription muscle relaxant and Zofran. 

I don't believe the medications were considered to be a factor.

I believe the final NTSB report showed that the trim was set to full nose up, which would have been the likely trim position for landing.

That would be consistent with the eye witness accounts of the incident.

[SARNorm]

If you soloed at 40 hours, then the majority of your flight time is with an instructor on board. I would encourage you to get more solo time prior to jumping into a complex aircraft with higher speeds and workloads. That will help you to develop your own mental (and written) checklists, and increase your experience and confidence to be able to look ahead during your flight and anticipate the "next step" in the flight.  Also, with more solo hours, you will be able to recognize what is normal and what is a potential problem. I also agree with the idea of using a club or rental aircraft to work though your landings. They will not all be perfect.

Best of luck with achieving your flying goals. 

[1980Mooney]

22 minutes ago, hubcap said:

I don't believe the medications were considered a factor.

I believe the final NTSB report showed that the trim was set to full nose up, which would have been the likely trim position for landing.

That would be consistent with the eye witness accounts of the incident.

That doesn't mean that they were not a factor.  Would you take a prescription muscle relaxant before flying?

The NTSB didn't determine why the pilot did what he did.  The NTSB reported the conditions that existed.  Full nose up trim selected in the cockpit and full nose up trim evidenced at the jackscrew.  Prescription muscle relaxants present in his body.  There was no equipment failure evident.

If you dial in full nose up trim during take off in any plane and do not take any action while speed decays, you will stall.  I do not think you can blame this on Mooney.  If Mooney's were so dangerous and difficult to control on takeoff they would have been outlawed years ago.

Yes a new Mooney pilot needs to be trained to

• Follow the POH and select take off trim
• Use the electric trim to get the nose down if it is too high
• Use the manual wheel trim to get the nose down if it is too high
• Use your arms and strength to push the yoke forward to get the nose down if it is too high

Sadly and tragically, the accident pilot missed 4 chances to get the take-off right.  We will never know exactly what was going through his head and body at the moment - perhaps some or all of:  confusion due to lack of training and/or experience? distraction? fatigue? influence of drugs? inattention? - 

[hubcap]

If low time pilots want to buy Mooneys, they certainly are able if they have the financial ability. Then everyone can complain about their insurance going up when the new guy forgets to put the gear down.

There are 19 pages of gear-up comments in the Safety Forum, and how many end up being relatively new owners? 

Again, I am not debating the merits of training as I am all for training. I just attended the MAPA event in Lexington. 
 

I have just read too many accident reports where low time guys either end up as fatalities or they break their airplanes, to think it’s a good idea for them to be flying around in high performance aircraft until they gain more experience.

[Pinecone]

Or maybe they need to build the habit of putting the gear down earlier in their flying career.

Maybe too many hours in fixed gear set bad habits.

[MattCW]

Let me clarify, I won't be buying until after my instrument rating, hopefully part of which will be done in a complex, though not high performance aircraft. I think the minimum complex time I'll finish my IR with will be 20 hours, but hopefully more (school's complex plane doesn't have a GPS, but is otherwise IFR certified). Even then, I won't be in a position to buy a plane for at least a few months after, during which I'll continue time building in a complex aircraft. So while I'll definitely be a low time pilot, I won't be quite an "ink wet" pilot by the time I'm ready to buy. My instructor has long since introduced GLUMPS to me, I still run through "undercarriage" and "propeller" even if the only appropriate action in the C172 is "exists" and "spinning," respectively.