Liability Release Form

[MikeOH]

On 1/23/2023 at 8:56 PM, Canadian Gal said:

Interesting topic, I would be more concerned about the people and expensive things on the ground, that I could crash into.

Hit a playground, school bus, park, 10 million dollar houses that burn, a hotel, office building, or busy hwy.

Suddenly that 1 guy you took up for a ride, will be the least of your problems if you crash.

While that seems a reasonable view, I think the reality is that your catastrophic scenario of ground damage is EXTREMELY rare, while injury to a passenger is a near certainty in any but the most minor incident.  The evidence for my view is that a liability policy with a $1,000,000 policy limit but $100K per seat sub-limits is quite reasonable, but one with a $1,000,000 smooth limit (i.e. $1,000,000 for the passenger) is quite pricey.  If insurance companies were concerned with ground damage (people and buildings) then that basic $1,000,000 policy would also be expensive.

[ZuluZulu]

On 12/27/2022 at 5:44 PM, jetdriven said:

I used to fly for angel flight. The waiver protects them from lawsuits from the passengers. But it doesn’t protect you one bit. I don’t fly for them anymore after finding this out.

You might be interested in reviewing the Volunteer Pilot Protection Act, which was passed as part of the FAA Reauthorization Act of 2018.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/14503

https://noplanenogain.org/aca-lauds-faa-reauthorization-act-for-providing-liability-protection-for-volunteer-pilots/

[MikeOH]

17 hours ago, ZuluZulu said:

You might be interested in reviewing the Volunteer Pilot Protection Act, which was passed as part of the FAA Reauthorization Act of 2018.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/14503

https://noplanenogain.org/aca-lauds-faa-reauthorization-act-for-providing-liability-protection-for-volunteer-pilots/

Yes, interesting read.  The cynic in me does have a couple of questions for the attorneys out there:

1) Dos NOT prevent a lawsuit, correct?

2) Looks like it's about 5 years old.  Any idea if it has been put to the test? Successfully preventing an award above policy limits?

3) "was properly licensed and insured for the operation of the aircraft" What is 'proper' insurance?  I don't believe you are legally required to have any.  Is the guy with only $100K per seat protected above a $100K award/settlement?  How about the guy with $1mill smooth? Does his insurance company have the misfortune of paying out $900K more than the other guys?  Is the 'proper insurance' determined by the event organizer?

4) "did not cause the harm through willful or criminal misconduct, gross negligence, reckless misconduct, or a conscious, flagrant indifference to the rights or safety of the individual harmed by the volunteer" Seems to me that a good plaintiff's attorney could construe a carve out to pierce the protection of this PPA.  Run out of gas, hit something, lose control on landing, .... could be an argument for 'gross' negligence.  Just sayin' it's a gray area.

[carusoam]

What are the comparable law suits when I accidentally step on the gas instead of the brake… and go through the front window of my favorite crowded restaurant?

is my car insurance equally lacking as my airplane insurance may be?

 

One value of the Liability form letter… it does kinda advise your potential guest to think before entering the plane… 

Best regards,

-a-

[Canadian Gal]

Makes me happy that in Canada frivolous lawsuits almost always lose.

Furthermore if sued, and the case is dismissed, you also get your legal costs back, so people are not inclined to make up silly lawsuits as much.

And if they were the sole bread winner for a family, why didn't they have life insurance already.

Also here, lets say that you have a mortgage, and then you die, the mandatory mortgage insurance, built into the mortgage payment covers it all.

So the spouse or whomever, also gets a paid off home.

But say a parent, with dependents like young kids, should have some life insurance.

If I die, my million dollar life insurance policy gets split 5 ways, but not evenly. My best friend gets the largest slice, partly to make sure that my dog has the best care money can buy, because he also goes to my bestie, and she will make the arrangements for my cremation, and trip to spread my ashes. If I die at work, that increases to 3 million dollars life insurance.

 

[Canadian Gal]

Oh by the way I don't carry hull insurance on my 185, my pickup truck doesn't have collision insurance either.

If I screw up and crash them, I'll pay for the damage.

From the amount of insurance money i have saved over the years, i can already pay for significant damage, and i save more every year.

[jetdriven]

our 160K hull policy is 1600$, and the liability is another 400$.  Doing the math, it doesnt take much to do a lot of damage to a plane. We just did  a hard landing prop strike repair on a 201 at our shop and it was 40 grand. And we shopped to only spend that.  if you save 1400$ a  year, thats $17K in saved hull premiums over 12 years.   But you would have to go 30 years without a large claim like that to make it pay. If you can afford to write a check and replace the plane, good.

FWIW our first trip in our plane it got hailed on, and it was a 38K claim. Likely that would be a lot more today.  8 years ago my buddy just bought an M20E and taxied into the ditch at night at his grass strip trying to find the fuel pump.  50 grand with the new prop and engine overhaul. He ate all of it.  But he was bragging the weekend before about saving 500$ a year for the hull. 100 year payoff.  Anyways, FWIW.

 

 

[Z W]

11 hours ago, carusoam said:

is my car insurance equally lacking as my airplane insurance may be?

 

Probably.  In many states the minimum required liability insurance limits are $25,000.00, an amount set 40+ years ago.  That no longer covers the cost of an ambulance ride to the emergency room to get X-rays and confirm nothing is broken.  Most policies sold are for the minimum amount (people call and ask for the cheapest monthly payment they can get).  So the odds are, if someone hits you, they will have $25,000.00 of coverage available.

To protect yourself, you can buy underinsured coverage on your policy, that pays you in that scenario.

If you don't know how much your liability limits are, there's some chance they're only $25,000.00, and if you cause a crash, you're liable for any amounts over that.  Getting a higher limit policy may be a good idea, and even better, an auto umbrella policy with a $1m or $2m limit is usually pretty cheap.

The problem for airplanes is that getting an umbrella policy that covers flying is impossible.  I've asked and been told nobody sells them.  I've also asked about getting $1m smooth coverage on the plane and been told we can't get it (Avemco).  Maybe a good broker could source it, I don't know.

Insurance companies are good at selling you a product that doesn't help much when you need it.  They make a lot more money that way.

[Sue Bon]

On 12/28/2022 at 12:45 AM, midlifeflyer said:

BTW, I remember my all time favorite liability waiver. It was one used by many tandem parachute jumping organizations. It included a video of a lawyerly-looking fellow behind a desk going through it point by point. I saw it when a jump school was referred to me after an unfortunate death when a parachute failed and suit was being threatened,

Fun Fact: My brother and I used to skydive. He learned here in Switzerland, where he started with a tandem. Things were running a bit late so they rushed him in his jump suit to the plane. He got his briefing in the plane. Once under canopy, the tandem instructor said, "ok, for the landing......"

When he went skydiving in Perris Valley, California, with his valid skydiving license, he had to do the whole video thing which apparently included the phrase that if he slips on a banana peel in the parking lot, the skydiving company is not liable. I didn't have do the video, but initialed and signed in multiple places on each page of the twelve page waiver. I never had to sign a waiver in any of the other countries where I went skydiving, which were many.

[Pinecone]

1 hour ago, Z W said:

Probably.  In many states the minimum required liability insurance limits are $25,000.00, an amount set 40+ years ago.  That no longer covers the cost of an ambulance ride to the emergency room to get X-rays and confirm nothing is broken.  Most policies sold are for the minimum amount (people call and ask for the cheapest monthly payment they can get).  So the odds are, if someone hits you, they will have $25,000.00 of coverage available.

Maryland requires a whopping $30,000 for bodily injury.  And $15,000 for property damage.

Hmm, so what happens when the hit and total that brand new $60,000 BMW or Mercedes or Audi or Corvette?????

The thing is, more insurance is not that much more expensive.

I was doing an insurance review and to bump my limits from $100,000 to $1,000,000 was about $6 per year.  Yes SIX DOLLARS.

[midlifeflyer]

8 hours ago, Sue Bon said:

Fun Fact: My brother and I used to skydive. He learned here in Switzerland, where he started with a tandem. Things were running a bit late so they rushed him in his jump suit to the plane. He got his briefing in the plane. Once under canopy, the tandem instructor said, "ok, for the landing......"

When he went skydiving in Perris Valley, California, with his valid skydiving license, he had to do the whole video thing which apparently included the phrase that if he slips on a banana peel in the parking lot, the skydiving company is not liable. I didn't have do the video, but initialed and signed in multiple places on each page of the twelve page waiver. I never had to sign a waiver in any of the other countries where I went skydiving, which were many.

One of those boxes likely also acknowledged that the company carried no liability insurance.

[Fly Boomer]

20 hours ago, jetdriven said:

But he was bragging the weekend before about saving 500$ a year for the hull. 100 year payoff. 

I know that guy!  And another 20 or 30 just like him.  I'll bet he "can't remember" crowing about how much money he was saving.

[MikeOH]

11 hours ago, Sue Bon said:

Fun Fact: My brother and I used to skydive. He learned here in Switzerland, where he started with a tandem. Things were running a bit late so they rushed him in his jump suit to the plane. He got his briefing in the plane. Once under canopy, the tandem instructor said, "ok, for the landing......"

When he went skydiving in Perris Valley, California, with his valid skydiving license, he had to do the whole video thing which apparently included the phrase that if he slips on a banana peel in the parking lot, the skydiving company is not liable. I didn't have do the video, but initialed and signed in multiple places on each page of the twelve page waiver. I never had to sign a waiver in any of the other countries where I went skydiving, which were many.

When my son and I went tandem skydiving for his 21st birthday at Lake Elsinore, California the skydiving company video taped us watching the warning video.  Then, they video taped us signing the waivers with their employees also in the video witnessing the signing!

[Canadian Gal]

14 hours ago, Z W said:

Probably.  In many states the minimum required liability insurance limits are $25,000.00, an amount set 40+ years ago.  That no longer covers the cost of an ambulance ride to the emergency room to get X-rays and confirm nothing is broken.  Most policies sold are for the minimum amount (people call and ask for the cheapest monthly payment they can get).  So the odds are, if someone hits you, they will have $25,000.00 of coverage available.

To protect yourself, you can buy underinsured coverage on your policy, that pays you in that scenario.

If you don't know how much your liability limits are, there's some chance they're only $25,000.00, and if you cause a crash, you're liable for any amounts over that.  Getting a higher limit policy may be a good idea, and even better, an auto umbrella policy with a $1m or $2m limit is usually pretty cheap.

The problem for airplanes is that getting an umbrella policy that covers flying is impossible.  I've asked and been told nobody sells them.  I've also asked about getting $1m smooth coverage on the plane and been told we can't get it (Avemco).  Maybe a good broker could source it, I don't know.

Insurance companies are good at selling you a product that doesn't help much when you need it.  They make a lot more money that way.

My mother was a half owner of an insurance company until she retired a few years ago.

She owned it with her sister, and they both were of the same opinion, save your money, buy the minimum insurance possible, and hope that if you ever need that, the adjuster doesn't find 10,000 reasons to deny your claim. My parents never carried full coverage on a vehicle, plane, or anything else. I have an uncle who is an adjuster, and their 1 son is also an adjuster, they laugh and laugh at how many claims they deny, because the more they save the insurance company, the more they get paid. They both tell me the same thing my parents taught me, save your insurance money, its a waste of cash.

I am 35, and my only insurance claim was 100% the other drivers fault, when rear ended at a red light. His insurance had to pay for my repairs.

I could roll my pickup tomorrow, and still be money ahead on what I haven't paid out for insurance. 

I have a half million dollars liability insurance on my truck and plane, fire, theft, and vandalism.

Not collision.

[Canadian Gal]

13 hours ago, Sue Bon said:

Fun Fact: My brother and I used to skydive. He learned here in Switzerland, where he started with a tandem. Things were running a bit late so they rushed him in his jump suit to the plane. He got his briefing in the plane. Once under canopy, the tandem instructor said, "ok, for the landing......"

When he went skydiving in Perris Valley, California, with his valid skydiving license, he had to do the whole video thing which apparently included the phrase that if he slips on a banana peel in the parking lot, the skydiving company is not liable. I didn't have do the video, but initialed and signed in multiple places on each page of the twelve page waiver. I never had to sign a waiver in any of the other countries where I went skydiving, which were many.

I have flown a jump school plane many times, and also have hundreds of jumps myself.

The school has 0 liability insurance for the jumpers.

When I was the pilot i had $250,000 coverage on me, but the moment I moved from front left seat to the floor, I had nothing but my work paid for life insurance policy.

If i was crippled $0, dead a million dollars.

[Fly Boomer]

14 hours ago, Canadian Gal said:

I have flown a jump school plane many times, and also have hundreds of jumps myself.

The school has 0 liability insurance for the jumpers.

When I was the pilot i had $250,000 coverage on me, but the moment I moved from front left seat to the floor, I had nothing but my work paid for life insurance policy.

If i was crippled $0, dead a million dollars.

Pray for dead.  Banged up so badly that life is not worth living is no good.  Besides, with a million in the bank, you have the basis for a modest retirement.

[Sue Bon]

17 hours ago, MikeOH said:

When my son and I went tandem skydiving for his 21st birthday at Lake Elsinore, California the skydiving company video taped us watching the warning video.  Then, they video taped us signing the waivers with their employees also in the video witnessing the signing!

That is ri-goshdarn-diculous...

[Pinecone]

On 1/26/2023 at 9:54 PM, Canadian Gal said:

My mother was a half owner of an insurance company until she retired a few years ago.

She owned it with her sister, and they both were of the same opinion, save your money, buy the minimum insurance possible, and hope that if you ever need that, the adjuster doesn't find 10,000 reasons to deny your claim. My parents never carried full coverage on a vehicle, plane, or anything else. I have an uncle who is an adjuster, and their 1 son is also an adjuster, they laugh and laugh at how many claims they deny, because the more they save the insurance company, the more they get paid. They both tell me the same thing my parents taught me, save your insurance money, its a waste of cash.

I am 35, and my only insurance claim was 100% the other drivers fault, when rear ended at a red light. His insurance had to pay for my repairs.

I could roll my pickup tomorrow, and still be money ahead on what I haven't paid out for insurance. 

I have a half million dollars liability insurance on my truck and plane, fire, theft, and vandalism.

Not collision.

Not all insurance companies are like that.

And, with mine, if someone hits me, I still claim through my insurance.  They pay the bills, except for the deductible, and THEY fight the claim with the other company.  And when they win, they pay me the deductible back.

And I pay collision on my cars, since the MD minimum insurance is $30,000, and it would cost me more than that to replace them.   My insurance pays the bills, then collects what they can off the other insurance company.

[jetdriven]

WRT auto insurance, many states, if they pay out under your collision and you don't have uninsured motorist coverage,  you get charged for an accident.  Then they raise your rates. Yes, you pay someone to hit you.  All UIM does is pay "protection" money to the insurance company to not charge you for the claim if the other motorist doesnt pay. You also cant get diminished value or loss of use from your insurer.

I dont want to write off a 200K airplane, so I have hull coverage. Its relatively cheap compared to how easy it is to total a plane. Not cheap dollars wise, but these are huge numbers to insure.

[Pinecone]

a)  I have uninsured motorist coverage.

b)  USAA does not wiggle out of claims or dinging members.  They DO work hard to not pay claims from non-members. 

[A64Pilot]

In Florida the required auto insurence is $10K

https://www.flhsmv.gov/insurance/

It’s pretty obvious the reason why you must have auto insurence is because the insurance lobby got that law passed, I’m sure there is a lot of profit in writing millions of $10K policies. In 2015 Fl had over 15 millions registered vehicles, average cost for min legally required insurance in Fl is $1,000 per vehicle per year, it was actually $997 I rounded it up, what is it today? A lot more than $1,000 is my guess.

That’s 15 Billion per year in just Florida, chicken scratch for the Federal Government, but to me it’s real money.

Full coverage is on average $2,700 per year in Fl.

I’m real low risk for insurance, haven’t had a claim in decades, only one I remember was 40 years ago, I insure three vehicles, only one full coverage, and my auto insurance is about what I pay for my house, which is about what I pay for the Mooney, so $6K a year in insurance, one claim in 40 years?

Insurance is of course a rip off, it has to be, because there has to be a profit after all their expenses are paid, and they have a whole lot of employees and other expenses on top of the profit.

Mooney is the only airplane I’ve insured, and only because of the **** NBS spring

USAA isn’t nearly as good as they used to be, they are just another mainstream insurance company now, but they won’t write insurance for an antique car, a big boat, nor an airplane and they dropped motorcycle insurance years ago and push you off on Geico I believe

[donkaye, MCFI]

I have flight instructor insurance, but the insurance companies don't provide anywhere near the coverage required for the newer airplanes.

I spent quite a bit of money late last year having my attorney draw up an Agreement of Waiver & Release of Liability for Flight Instruction for my Corporation and myself.  I looked at the AOPA form, and it doesn't hold a candle to the one my attorney generated.  I thought I would have use it to do an Acclaim Ultra training I did last month.  It turned out her Insurance Company provided me a waiver of subrogation and added me on to her policy. 

Recently I have had several people ask me to be their instructor for their Instrument Rating.  One is an RV-10 and the other is a DA40 NG.  I don't have any time in either, so the likelihood of my getting added on to a policy with a waiver of subrogation is nil.  Time to use the waiver.  While I understand it may not stand up in court, at least it may be something of a deterrent to litigation.  It is a horrible agreement---for the signor.  After telling my first prospective student that I would be requiring the waiver and that it was a terrible agreement for him, I also said that I would understand, but would be unable to teach him if he didn't want to sign it.  It will be interesting to see if it will be signed.  I love teaching, but not at the expense of potentially losing what has taken decades to achieve...

[Pinecone]

15 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

USAA isn’t nearly as good as they used to be, they are just another mainstream insurance company now, but they won’t write insurance for an antique car, a big boat, nor an airplane and they dropped motorcycle insurance years ago and push you off on Geico I believe

They have never wanted to insure motorcycles.  When I got mine, their quote was stupid high and they admitted that they just didn't want the business.

They don't insure airplanes, but they have an agreement with Falcon to handle USAA customers.  If you call using the number from USAA you get a special group at Falcon that only handles USAA customers.  
 

They do the same thing with travel insurance.  They had a deal with Travel Insured, and if you go through the USAA site, you get better coverage for less money than others.

[carusoam]

+1 for USAA for all my insurance needs… three generations of USAA customers, lead by an Army Captain… 

+1 for Airspeed for the hands on approach, for their personalized, conversational, supportive discussions… and support of MS…

Our Airspeed guy…. Worked at Falcon and flew an M20K… as a young buck!

 

-a-

[Pinecone]

Only second generation USAA here, AFAIK. But GF was Coast Guard, so he may have been.

But my Dad is coming up on 73 years as a member.  When he calls and they ask for his number, that always tell him there are not enough digits, but once they type it i, they comment they have never seen one that low.

I am only coming up on 43 years.

I keep asking them when we are not in their commercials.  We REALLY have been members for longer than many peoples lifetimes.

I will check him out when I need to renew.