What Is It Worth?

[Echo]

Would like user input on value as is for purchase of an M20E  I fully understand the unknowns with a Mooney that has sat in a hanger for three years.  Looking for price you would pay "as is".  Thanks in advance for input.  I value the collective wisdom of ""The Group".

1970 M20E  

No Logbooks, but known history for >20 years.  Partial logs/maint. known  

Approximately 3000 Airframe and engine

Hangered, but NOT flown for three years following I-Ran at Poplar Grove for prop strike.  New two blade at same time

Paint and interior 5

Garman 430w, Garmin ADSB compliant transponder, Fuel Flow, Four probe engine monitor, Brittain inop, No Auto Pilot, TKM back-up nav/com

Just assume tanks weep, but don't run

Lower cowl closure, Boom Beam, Strobes, Oil filer/spin on/Oil cooler relocate

Edited October 12, 2022 by Echo

[Jcmtl]

Maybe someone can correct me but weren’t 1969 and 1970 the “cost cutting” years ie. non flush rivets on the wings, etc?

is the engine 3000 smoh?  
 

i think id pay 35k and prepared to spend 70k bringing the plane back to life

[Echo]

This M20 E was manufactured in 69 but sold as a 70 model year. Mooney was short of cash and went bankrupt in early 1969. My understanding was that the butler/arrow star years that followed in the 1970s were the cost cutting, but I could be wrong. 1970 was the first year for electric flaps in addition to electric gear on the E model. Also has like it or not throttle quadrant. Thanks for your reply.

[Echo]

Just curious on $70k refurb number?  How did ya get there?

[Fly Boomer]

2 minutes ago, Echo said:

Just curious on $70k refurb number?  How did ya get there?

A few years ago, someone here received a Mooney as a gift.  When he was satisfied with the condition of the engine, prop, and airframe, he had $85,000 invested.

[M20F]

Just now, Echo said:

Just curious on $70k refurb number?  How did ya get there?

Prop and engine are going to be $40-50, then you have everything else. 
 

[Echo]

The plane has a new prop.  The engine was inspected and items replaced as needed including cylinders during I-ran three years ago.  I get that camshaft may have or show issues, but engine is NOT a complete unknown with mandatory major due, right?

[Echo]

My eyes are wide open  FULLY understand what a major engine overhaul costs.  Not asking for scary what if input.  Not my first Mooney.  Just asking what you would pay based on info I provided or can provide with additional questions.

[M20F]

1 minute ago, Echo said:

My eyes are wide open  FULLY understand what a major engine overhaul costs. 

Sounds like you already have it figured out. 

[Echo]

14 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

A few years ago, someone here received a Mooney as a gift.  When he was satisfied with the condition of the engine, prop, and airframe, he had $85,000 invested.

If it is a J.  Money well spent and should see return on investment.  Otherwise...

[Echo]

4 minutes ago, M20F said:

Sounds like you already have it figured out. 

Just clarified that prop is new/zero time.  Sorry if that offended you.  Understand there are unknowns.  Didn't ask for worse case.  Asked what you would pay.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Echo

[Echo]

So window is zero to $35k.  Thanks guys.  Duly noted.

[Echo]

I 100% agree with that range.

[Ragsf15e]

I mean there’s only a couple things that would scrap it - spar corrosion being the big one.  Where in the country has it been kept?  Check that carefully.  

Otherwise, simply deduct for a percentage chance that the cam is toast, you’re missing all the logs (that’s a biggie), avionics are ancient, and the airplane hasn’t moved in 3 years so will have some other random issues.  
 

If you’re willing to put in the money and work, it could be fine.  As long as it doesn’t have corrosion, it’s worth something more than 0.  Buy it for 25-35k, plan on spending 15k, but be ready for an engine if you’re unlucky.  It still won’t have the logs when you’re done resurrecting it.

[LANCECASPER]

Pictures would show us how it's been cared for, somewhat at least. It sounds like you're looking for something to show the owner to pay what you'd like to pay for it. I would compare it to the nicest, most well-kept E for sale. It's highly unlikely that no matter what you pay for this one that you'll eventually have it as nice as that one for less money. If the logs can't be found or reconstructed it will never be worth as much as that one, at least 15% less in my opinion.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Echo said:

This M20 E was manufactured in 69 but sold as a 70 model year. Mooney was short of cash and went bankrupt in early 1969. My understanding was that the butler/arrow star years that followed in the 1970s were the cost cutting, but I could be wrong. 1970 was the first year for electric flaps in addition to electric gear on the E model. Also has like it or not throttle quadrant. Thanks for your reply.

Electric gear, electric flaps and the six-pack panel configuration began with the 1969 models.

I really like my 1970 C! 

[Echo]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

Pictures would show us how it's been cared for, somewhat at least. It sounds like you're looking for something to show the owner to pay what you'd like to pay for it. I would compare it to the nicest, most well-kept E for sale. It's highly unlikely that no matter what you pay for this one that you'll eventually have it as nice as that one for less money. If the logs can't be found or reconstructed it will never be worth as much as that one, at least 15% less in my opinion.

No thanks.  Agree photos have value, but no sale yet so...No, just interested in what others think regarding value.  No hidden agenda.  It helps to validate or re-calibrate ideas on value and hoped might also help others in similar circumstances.  No desire to make it the nicest.  Just safe reliable (as a 50 year old machine that is maintained) can be.  I know plane and owner.  Log loss is a plus to me because I know plane and don't want to pay that extra 15%.  Mostof logs CAN be reconstructed  Same maintainer for 20 years.

[Utah20Gflyer]

Given the current market the plane is probably worth 50k even with all the unknowns.  I get a lot of people here wouldn't pay that much but there are plenty of people who would, maybe let's call them the less sophisticated buyers. 

I looked at a C model before I bought my G and it needed a lot of upgrades to bring it up to what I would call acceptable condition.  They were asking 45k and I offered 31k.  The seller acted like I was being ridiculous.  I explained my reasoning but ultimately someone showed up and paid 45k for that plane.  Maybe they didn't care that it was VFR based on the condition of the avionics, maybe they didn't care all the glass needed to be replaced.  They obviously didn't care about the ratty interior.  Maybe someone just wanted  something to fly around on fair weather days for fun, or maybe they didn't understand what it would take to get that plane back into good condition. Who knows??? All I know is that if a plane can be flown there is probably someone who will throw down their money to do so. 

[Echo]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Electric gear, electric flaps and the six-pack panel configuration began with the 1969 models.

I really like my 1970 C! 

Thanks Hank!  I had read the E was 1970, but as this plane was built in '69 and those attributes I agree 100%.

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

I mean there’s only a couple things that would scrap it - spar corrosion being the big one.  Where in the country has it been kept?  Check that carefully.  

Otherwise, simply deduct for a percentage chance that the cam is toast, you’re missing all the logs (that’s a biggie), avionics are ancient, and the airplane hasn’t moved in 3 years so will have some other random issues.  
 

If you’re willing to put in the money and work, it could be fine.  As long as it doesn’t have corrosion, it’s worth something more than 0.  Buy it for 25-35k, plan on spending 15k, but be ready for an engine if you’re unlucky.  It still won’t have the logs when you’re done resurrecting it.

I wouldn't call the panel ancient.  The upgrades are wll spent from OEM panel with four cylinder engine monitor, fuel flow 430w and Garmin wass transponder.  Not a shotgun Narco set up.  I take exception to "ancient avionics" assessment...To me it's enough.  To those that go glass on a fifty year old plane...good for them, but at $30k I could scrap and get close to whole, right?

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, Echo said:

Thanks Hank!  I had read the E was 1970, but as this plane was built in '69 and those attributes I agree 100%.

I wouldn't call the panel ancient.  The upgrades are wll spent from OEM panel with four cylinder engine monitor, fuel flow 430w and Garmin wass transponder.  Not a shotgun Narco set up.  I take exception to "ancient avionics" assessment...To me it's enough.  To those that go glass on a fifty year old plane...good for them, but at $30k I could scrap and get close to whole, right?

Maybe ancient is a strong word, but it doesn’t add value to the airplane either. If it’s ok for you, then that’s fine.  Most Mooneys travel, so lack of an autopilot is an issue.  I’m just say the avionics don’t add value and will likely need some work sooner or later.

[Fly Boomer]

2 hours ago, Echo said:

but at $30k I could scrap and get close to whole, right?

That's a thought, but it might take years, and you have to strip all the most valuable stuff, and store it in your basement.  The carcass could live outside, but you still need a place for it.

[Echo]

3 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

That's a thought, but it might take years, and you have to strip all the most valuable stuff, and store it in your basement.  The carcass could live outside, but you still need a place for it.

Yup, Duly noted.  Guy bought out of New Mexico and hangered last 20.  Tube inspection completed and old insulation removed.  Really just the cam and if bought right theoverhaul would not sink the ship.  I would rehab the PC and it has t&b for controller so easier to replace.  add an accu-trak and it would be solid for my mission.

[Fly Boomer]

6 minutes ago, Echo said:

Yup, Duly noted.  Guy bought out of New Mexico and hangered last 20.  Tube inspection completed and old insulation removed.  Really just the cam and if bought right theoverhaul would not sink the ship.  I would rehab the PC and it has t&b for controller so easier to replace.  add an accu-trak and it would be solid for my mission.

It's a long read, but here is an M20J with a similar story in Europe:

 

[Jcmtl]

6 hours ago, Echo said:

Just curious on $70k refurb number?  How did ya get there?

I’d set 30-40 aside for the engine.  Another 30-40 for avionics, interior, and the inevitable maintenance issues that pop up in that first year post hibernation.  For example, pitot static leak, fuel drain leak, scat tubes needing replacing, badly rigged, rusted or broken engine control cables, water leaks around the door or windshield, etc…  this is without a paint job or fixing any corrosion issues.  

[Echo]

49 minutes ago, Jcmtl said:

I’d set 30-40 aside for the engine.  Another 30-40 for avionics, interior, and the inevitable maintenance issues that pop up in that first year post hibernation.  For example, pitot static leak, fuel drain leak, scat tubes needing replacing, badly rigged, rusted or broken engine control cables, water leaks around the door or windshield, etc…  this is without a paint job or fixing any corrosion issues.  

If the plane needs an overhaul, that is fine.  Rollong the dice on the cam.  The plane will be annualed.  No doubt there will be some isues, but the plane isn't going to need ANY big avionics outlays.  Interior is fine.  Plane is relatively low time and seats, headliner, carpets and plastics are better than my last Mooney.  Again, the engine was out with I-ran and has been hangered.  I have seen/sat in the plane...

Honestly, sorry I asked as I explained that I was asking ONLY what you would pay as is.  For a group of enthusiast's, there is a lot of negativity...By that I mean beware warnings.  I have owned multiple Mooney's...Not my first or second rodeo.  Already looking forward to a third of the travel time for missions, and as a soon to be retired guy a few upgrades to enjoy the process.  Many Mooney's have a slow seep in tanks.  These tank are a third full after three years...Paint is updated.  The plane has been hangered.  Just needs a good wash and wax on exterior.  Maybe a bk or Other auto pilot if they ever get approved...I am not trying to be cheap.  I see an opportunity.

Blue skies...or stormy I enjoy the ride.