Anyone have a used out of spec no back spring I can buy?

[philip_g]

I want to provide an owner produced part for our actuator but I don't want to take ours out. We have the middle actuator, not dukes, not Eaton, avionics products company. I think it's the same as an eaton though? It's a long story but I can get one made in Japan but can't find a drawing or specifications

Edited February 17, 2022 by philip_g

[A64Pilot]

I’m afraid I don’t have one, but if your going to get one made is it much more money for them to do a run of a dozen or so? Sometimes the setup etc is what takes time and time is money, the actual production can often be done quickly. I believe your correct on it being an Eaton.

Edited February 17, 2022 by A64Pilot

[toto]

I don't know anything about metallurgy, but didn't the whole NBS issue start because there was a small batch of bad springs?  Is there a way to have a shop make an OPP with confidence that it won't suffer the same fate?

(Asking because I have no idea -- can you test these things somehow?)

[Hank]

32 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I’m afraid I don’t have one, but if your going to get one made is it much more money for them to do a run of a dozen or so? Sometimes the setup etc is what takes time and time is money, the actual production can often be done quickly. I believe your correct on it being an Eaton.

The spring companies that I've dealt with at work, 50 pieces is generally about twice the price of a single spring . . .

[Hank]

Just now, toto said:

I don't know anything about metallurgy, but didn't the whole NBS issue start because there was a small batch of bad springs?  Is there a way to have a shop make an OPP with confidence that it won't suffer the same fate?

(Asking because I have no idea -- can you test these things somehow?)

I thought it was a heat treatment defect. Yes, this is testable for a batch of springs, but not on one spring (it's destructive testing).

[toto]

Just now, Hank said:

I thought it was a heat treatment defect. Yes, this is testable for a batch of springs, but not on one spring (it's destructive testing).

Again, I'm totally ignorant of this sort of thing....  But how many springs would you have to test from a batch?  Is there a sweet spot for a min quantity from a pricing / testing standpoint?

[philip_g]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

I’m afraid I don’t have one, but if your going to get one made is it much more money for them to do a run of a dozen or so? Sometimes the setup etc is what takes time and time is money, the actual production can often be done quickly. I believe your correct on it being an Eaton.

I think he figured I could make 100 of them  pretty cheap. I don't really want to go into the business of selling non PMA parts and get fined by the FAA (ala geebee)

[philip_g]

36 minutes ago, toto said:

I don't know anything about metallurgy, but didn't the whole NBS issue start because there was a small batch of bad springs?  Is there a way to have a shop make an OPP with confidence that it won't suffer the same fate?

(Asking because I have no idea -- can you test these things somehow?)

The guy handling it is my co owner and I don't want to get into it but he knows more about springs than anyone really should. Idk anything about them. He said something about that type of spring there's only a few metals or something but he comes from a professional race suspension engineering background

Edited February 18, 2022 by philip_g

[A64Pilot]

I don’t think testing is realistic, possibly because I at least don’t know exactly what to test for, one could infer how far the spring is either compressed or extended and the load it’s under, but a test rig is more than you may think, and inconclusive.

Ideally a spring is heat treated after forming, but I’m pretty sure that’s not common at all, but would be worth asking.

‘I’ve never seen a broken one, but suspect they break right in the bend of the little tab, I’d bet because the bend radius was tight for an already heat treated spring, or perhaps the heat treatment was too high.

ALL guesses 

[carusoam]

The spring failures around here had problems in the manufacturing step…

Somewhere between materials, heat treating, and bending the ends to form the final shape…. Small cracks were initiated…

 

So… if the manufacturing process is well defined… and the steps get followed… making the spring isn’t that big of a technical challenge…

When the issue is an unknown, and the process has an unknown in it…. It is very difficult to find out that the issue was batch related….

Then you find out how good you are at Part numbers, serial numbers, and their tracking…. 

 

Find Mr. Hyett… I think he has nice pics of the offending cracks in a spring of Mooney landing gear system….

Share those pics with your spring friend… if he knows materials and spring manufacturing… this could be a viable project…

 

Just know… it is a sensitive thing to change out… owners don’t want to swap out something that is fairly good for something that is unknown… when a GU landing is caused by the failed spring…

Proceed with due caution…

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic or spring manufacturer…

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

Paging @Hyett6420, your knowledge of no back spring failure is requested above. Long time no hear, Andrew! 

[Guest]

These springs are $1.50 per hour.  Need we say more?

Clarence

[philip_g]

10 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

These springs are $1.50 per hour.  Need we say more?

Clarence

Cool. You got one on the shelf?

[A64Pilot]

3 hours ago, M20Doc said:

These springs are $1.50 per hour.  Need we say more?

Clarence

When they are available they are, unfortunately they haven’t been since I’ve been looking.

Do you know of a source, or who I should call to get one?

Edited February 18, 2022 by A64Pilot

[toto]

We haven't seen @Jonny around for quite a while, but the NBS was one of the items on the top of his priority list.  They did have some available for a little while (see other related MS threads), but have not been available lately.  Maybe Jonny can advise whether these will be produced again by Mooney.  There's clearly demand for these, and at this point there are quite a few of us who might buy a second one just to have it on the shelf.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, philip_g said:

Cool. You got one on the shelf?

Yes! But it’s for my customer base.  I also have on old one just removed from an Easton actuator.

Clarence

[philip_g]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

Yes! But it’s for my customer base.  I also have on old one just removed from an Easton actuator.

Clarence

Adding much to the discussion then, as usual.

[1980Mooney]

4 hours ago, toto said:

We haven't seen @Jonny around for quite a while, but the NBS was one of the items on the top of his priority list. ....

Not surprising since they are still trying to peddle what is left of the company on the business broker of last recourse - BizQuest - the "Craigslist" of business sale sites.

Legendary Aircraft Manufacturer | For Sale in Kerrville, Texas | BizQuest.com

I think the items on the top of Jonny Pollack's priority list is his real full-time job at Elliott Management. 

Edited February 19, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[toto]

5 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Not surprising since they are still trying to peddle what is left of the company on the business broker of last recourse - BizQuest - the "Craigslist" of business sale sites.

Legendary Aircraft Manufacturer | For Sale in Kerrville, Texas | BizQuest.com

I think the items on the top of Jonny Pollack's priority list is his real full-time job at Elliott Management. 

I know that the company is for sale, but my understanding is that they’re still open and making parts. If they’re still making parts, I would imagine that the NBS is one with steady demand. 

[bmcconnaha]

2 hours ago, toto said:

I know that the company is for sale, but my understanding is that they’re still open and making parts. If they’re still making parts, I would imagine that the NBS is one with steady demand. 

Kind of pathetic to be left hanging from a company still technically in business.  I’d like a spring for my plessey actuator, but can’t find one.  Sure would be nice to get my hands on one of these used, so I can have it duplicated.  

[Guest]

11 hours ago, philip_g said:

Adding much to the discussion then, as usual.

Why would I sell it to you, when its already reserved for one on my customers?  If I had a second one I’d sell it to a nice person.

Clarence

 

[1980Mooney]

On 2/17/2022 at 4:27 PM, philip_g said:

I want to provide an owner produced part for our actuator but I don't want to take ours out. We have the middle actuator, not dukes, not Eaton, avionics products company. I think it's the same as an eaton though? It's a long story but I can get one made in Japan but can't find a drawing or specifications

 

20 hours ago, philip_g said:

Cool. You got one on the shelf?

 

15 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Yes! But it’s for my customer base.  I also have on old one just removed from an Easton actuator.

Clarence

 

14 hours ago, philip_g said:

Adding much to the discussion then, as usual.

The one person in the world that has what you desperately need, literally the ONE PERSON IN THE WORLD, and you still belittle and insult him - again, as usual, continually...

What did he do to you?....insult your plane?, kick your dog?, sleep with your wife?

 

[philip_g]

21 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

 

 

The one person in the world that has what you desperately need, literally the ONE PERSON IN THE WORLD, and you still belittle and insult him - again, as usual, continually...

What did he do to you?....insult your plane?, kick your dog?, sleep with your wife?

 

He has no purpose here other than to say he has a spring no one else can have. If you think he has any intentions of helping anyone that doesn't involve looneys in his pocket you're sadly mistaken.

 

At least he made my point for me. I guess these "only a few dollar an hour" springs are hard enough to get that they need to be hoarded when available.

Edited February 19, 2022 by philip_g

[1980Mooney]

20 minutes ago, philip_g said:

He has no purpose here other than to say he has a spring no one else can have. If you think he has any intentions of helping anyone that doesn't involve looneys in his pocket you're sadly mistaken.

Oh so you have some deep seated hatred of Canadians?  

Edited February 19, 2022 by 1980Mooney

[1980Mooney]

 

13 hours ago, toto said:

I know that the company is for sale, but my understanding is that they’re still open and making parts. If they’re still making parts, I would imagine that the NBS is one with steady demand. 

 

11 hours ago, bmcconnaha said:

Kind of pathetic to be left hanging from a company still technically in business.  I’d like a spring for my plessey actuator, but can’t find one. 

"still technically in business".... It is a company carrying the overhead cost and liability of an "airplane manufacturing company" that is only a "parts company".  All the fancy titles and cost for the executives, the liability for everything manufactured in the last 18 years (regardless of past bankruptcies), the Engineering Dept that is working on what??- it is not sustainable with the few $millions from part sales.