Engine overhaul

[EricJ]

39 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

I had always understood that in order to be called an Overhaul it had to be run in with a set of calibrated instruments to record engine parameters including temperatures, RPM, MAP.  The oil is to be drained, suction screen and main filter are to be checked after the run.  Drained oil is supposed recorded and compared to starting quantity in order to determine oil use during the run.
 The test club propellers are specific to engine horsepower,  if the engine can turn the prop to a specified RPM, it’s supposed to be making rated HP.

Clarence

The Lycoming overhaul manual I have just recommends it.   It's a July 2011 revision, so not too old.

[Browncbr1]

I spoke again to the builder.   the engine oil was drained and the filter was removed and cut after the test run.   The filter inspection was normal and he told me what to expect with the 10hr filter cut. 
 

it was run with the club at low power to test function and set oil pressure, etc.   it was a cold day and he guarantees chts didn’t get hot enough for any glazing.  He did run it up for mag checks and then full power to make sure it’s made the rated rpm for 200hp.
 

  He said that as a general rule of thumb, glazing is avoided so long as chts don’t get up about 425 for a few minutes.     He and others have told me the club props put out so much wind, that cowling isn’t needed.  also, that you couldn’t run it like that with a flying prop though.  He also reminded me that this was not a run-in or a break-in run.  He gave me a very specific procedure  for the initial installation check run and let it cool back to ambient.  Then details on the initial 1.5 hour break in flight.   
 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Browncbr1

[jetdriven]

Your guy is flying in the face of Lycoming 

“ideally, this procedure is to be done in a test cell where operating conditions can be closely monitored. If the engine is operated in a test cell, the engine must have intercylinder baffles, a cooling shroud, and a test club installed for engine Revolution Per Minute (RPM) requirements. If a test cell is not available, use a test stand with a test club and a cooling shroud for the engine test.”

Source https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/Lycoming Reciprocating engine Break-In and Oil Consumption.pdf

 

[Browncbr1]

10 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Your guy is flying in the face of Lycoming 

“ideally, this procedure is to be done in a test cell where operating conditions can be closely monitored. If the engine is operated in a test cell, the engine must have intercylinder baffles, a cooling shroud, and a test club installed for engine Revolution Per Minute (RPM) requirements. If a test cell is not available, use a test stand with a test club and a cooling shroud for the engine test.”

Source https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/Lycoming Reciprocating engine Break-In and Oil Consumption.pdf

 

I really can’t rethink what has already been done.  It’s history.  He has built many engines since the 80’s.  He worked at a shop for years where they had a water dyno and did as you describe.   Shops that have that equipment charge about $10k more for the engine rebuild.    Not everything is ideal, but it comes with a 2 year warranty and I trust him, as he’s built hundreds of engines.   I’d rather not have the anxiety of trying to question history right now.   I’d rather just focus on hanging it and break-in.   thanks for your comments though.  You’ve posted tons of valuable info all over MS for a long time.  I appreciate you!

[Browncbr1]

I read that multigrade non-AD oil is better for protecting against glazing compared to straight weight.    Does anyone have any technical knowledge on the subject of breakin oil?

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

I really can’t rethink what has already been done.  It’s history.  He has built many engines since the 80’s.  He worked at a shop for years where they had a water dyno and did as you describe.   Shops that have that equipment charge about $10k more for the engine rebuild.    Not everything is ideal, but it comes with a 2 year warranty and I trust him, as he’s built hundreds of engines.   I’d rather not have the anxiety of trying to question history right now.   I’d rather just focus on hanging it and break-in.   thanks for your comments though.  You’ve posted tons of valuable info all over MS for a long time.  I appreciate you!

I wouldn’t fret.  For decades engines have been run in with test club propellers.  The potential of too warm on a ground run won’t take out your camshaft , which is the most likely death of your Lycoming.

Clarence

[DXB]

17 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

it was run with the club at low power to test function and set oil pressure, etc.   it was a cold day and he guarantees chts didn’t get hot enough for any glazing.  He did run it up for mag checks and then full power to make sure it’s made the rated rpm for 200hp.
 

  He said that as a general rule of thumb, glazing is avoided so long as chts don’t get up about 425 for a few minutes.     He and others have told me the club props put out so much wind, that cowling isn’t needed.  also, that you couldn’t run it like that with a flying prop though.  He also reminded me that this was not a run-in or a break-in run.  He gave me a very specific procedure  for the initial installation check run and let it cool back to ambient.  Then details on the initial 1.5 hour break in flight.   
 

This information about glazing seems contrary to any other guidance I've ever read including lycoming's https://www.lycoming.com/content/hard-facts-about-engine-break   My understanding was that It's low power operation that fails to seat the rings against the crosshatch on the walls and thus don't wipe oil off the walls. If that goes on too long the oil glazes the wall into a smooth surface, thus preventing break in. High CHTs up to 440 or so are expected and tolerable during the initial break in. 

 

Not an expert -please correct me if I misunderstood.  

[Browncbr1]

5 hours ago, DXB said:

This information about glazing seems contrary to any other guidance I've ever read including lycoming's https://www.lycoming.com/content/hard-facts-about-engine-break   My understanding was that It's low power operation that fails to seat the rings against the crosshatch on the walls and thus don't wipe oil off the walls. If that goes on too long the oil glazes the wall into a smooth surface, thus preventing break in. High CHTs up to 440 or so are expected and tolerable during the initial break in. 

 

Not an expert -please correct me if I misunderstood.  

From what I understand, it’s the combination of low power and hot cylinders that causes glazing.  
 

All I know is I’m planning a short installation and leak check run up and let it cool to ambient before starting it up to taxi out and fly.   Then I’ll fly it like I stole it. 

[Browncbr1]

Went over and checked torque on several things.  I found the gov oil line fittings was loose at the gov.  Didn’t find anything else that was loose.  Put motor mount and isolators on the engine then bolted bottom firewall attach points and swung engine up to attach uppers.  Major pain to get the top bolts in through the cabin.  Co-pilot side bolt is in, but still working on pilot side.  Need two people. My idea of using the tiedown strap doesn’t really work because it needs to also go up a little bit.     All new hardware.  

[Browncbr1]

This is a newly rebuilt servo.  This doesn’t look right???  See how it over centers??

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

Went over and checked torque on several things.  I found the gov oil line fittings was loose at the gov.  Didn’t find anything else that was loose.  Put motor mount and isolators on the engine then bolted bottom firewall attach points and swung engine up to attach uppers.  Major pain to get the top bolts in through the cabin.  Co-pilot side bolt is in, but still working on pilot side.  Need two people. My idea of using the tiedown strap doesn’t really work because it needs to also go up a little bit.     All new hardware.  

Usually the bolts go in from the cabin side with the nut in the engine compartment.  Take an old bolt, cut off the head, grind a point on the other end.  Drive it through from the cabin side to align the the mount, then drive the new bolt through.

Clarence

[Browncbr1]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

Usually the bolts go in from the cabin side with the nut in the engine compartment.  Take an old bolt, cut off the head, grind a point on the other end.  Drive it through from the cabin side to align the the mount, then drive the new bolt through.

Clarence

That’s pretty much what I did with one of them.. I was able to tap it through without actually beating it through I’m afraid the other one is too tight and may damage the threads without a helping hand to reduce side load on the bolt.  Hopefully will get that last bolt on tomorrow with good threads.  Then torque all as per page 71

Edited March 23, 2022 by Browncbr1

[Browncbr1]

Two of the ignition lead springs are missing from my harness.  Does anyone know where these are available?

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

Two of the ignition lead springs are missing from my harness.  Does anyone know where these are available?

If it’s a Slick/Champion harness, it’s an M2929 spring.  Available from Spruce

Clarence

[0TreeLemur]

On 3/22/2022 at 6:01 AM, Browncbr1 said:

I read that multigrade non-AD oil is better for protecting against glazing compared to straight weight.    Does anyone have any technical knowledge on the subject of breakin oil?

When I had a cylinder replaced a year and a half ago I read that and the Lycoming guidance.  I also found an article that Mike Busch wrote on break-in.    Here's what I pieced together:

Not an A&P or new engine break-in expert.  Just trying to be helpful.  Welcome input from others -Fred

First Break-In Flight

Lycoming's service instructions for break-in are written as if you are running a freshly overhauled
engine for the first time. In the case of a cylinder replacement, the objective is to allow the new piston
rings to wear down the honing on the new cylinder walls and properly seal.

It is important to limit ground runs. Ultimately the goal during the first 2.5 hours is to keep manifold
pressure high and CHT below 410F. As per Lycoming, use only mineral oil like Aeroshell W100
during break-in for the first 50 hours after cylinder replacement.

BREAK IN CHECKLIST
1. Run the engine at 1000 RPM for ~3 minutes. Check for leaks, security, etc. Let the engine cool.
2. Perform a second ground run, just long enough to get the oil temperature into the green.
•  Do a normal run-up, but don't "deep cycle" the propeller. Make sure it changes pitch and
controls properly.
•  Run the engine to full power for 10 seconds.
•  Verify static RPM during this full power, should be about 2650 rpm.
3. Shut down the engine, perform a final leak check, etc.

Break-in procedure from Lycoming:
• The first flight should be 2.5 hours within glide range of the airport
◦  full power takeoff, keep airspeed up to keep CHT below 410F in all cylinders
◦  first hour at 75% power
◦  second hour vary the power between 65% and 75%
◦  last half hour at full power

Return to shop afterwards for a post-flight inspection.
Check oil filter for metal production at 10 hours. Do it at 5 hours if the engine produced metal before
the cylinder replacement to make sure you found the ONLY problem cylinder.
Run engine at max power mixture, approx. 150F rich of peak EGT, during break in period.
After this 50 hour break-in period, switch to an ashless-dispersant (AD) oil.
WHAT NOT TO DO:
1. Don't scrub the flight if a CHT or EGT probe malfunctions. It's not worth further prolonging the
ground runs.
2. Don't run it longer on the ground than you have to, but don't compromise safety either. Don't take off until you are comfortable with it. Don’t deep-cycle the propeller during the pre-takeoff runup, just make sure that it is responsive.
 

-good luck!

[Browncbr1]

Today Was mostly tedious routing and securing of fuel a electrical lines and lots of reworking to making things a little cleaner and easier to access later on down the road.    Next time, the left rear baffle definitely will go on before the motor mount.  That took several hours.  
 

 

Edited March 25, 2022 by Browncbr1

[Browncbr1]

20 hours ago, 0TreeLemur said:

When I had a cylinder replaced a year and a half ago I read that and the Lycoming guidance.  I also found an article that Mike Busch wrote on break-in.    Here's what I pieced together:

Not an A&P or new engine break-in expert.  Just trying to be helpful.  Welcome input from others -Fred

First Break-In Flight

Lycoming's service instructions for break-in are written as if you are running a freshly overhauled
engine for the first time. In the case of a cylinder replacement, the objective is to allow the new piston
rings to wear down the honing on the new cylinder walls and properly seal.

It is important to limit ground runs. Ultimately the goal during the first 2.5 hours is to keep manifold
pressure high and CHT below 410F. As per Lycoming, use only mineral oil like Aeroshell W100
during break-in for the first 50 hours after cylinder replacement.

BREAK IN CHECKLIST
1. Run the engine at 1000 RPM for ~3 minutes. Check for leaks, security, etc. Let the engine cool.
2. Perform a second ground run, just long enough to get the oil temperature into the green.
•  Do a normal run-up, but don't "deep cycle" the propeller. Make sure it changes pitch and
controls properly.
•  Run the engine to full power for 10 seconds.
•  Verify static RPM during this full power, should be about 2650 rpm.
3. Shut down the engine, perform a final leak check, etc.

Break-in procedure from Lycoming:
• The first flight should be 2.5 hours within glide range of the airport
◦  full power takeoff, keep airspeed up to keep CHT below 410F in all cylinders
◦  first hour at 75% power
◦  second hour vary the power between 65% and 75%
◦  last half hour at full power

Return to shop afterwards for a post-flight inspection.
Check oil filter for metal production at 10 hours. Do it at 5 hours if the engine produced metal before
the cylinder replacement to make sure you found the ONLY problem cylinder.
Run engine at max power mixture, approx. 150F rich of peak EGT, during break in period.
After this 50 hour break-in period, switch to an ashless-dispersant (AD) oil.
WHAT NOT TO DO:
1. Don't scrub the flight if a CHT or EGT probe malfunctions. It's not worth further prolonging the
ground runs.
2. Don't run it longer on the ground than you have to, but don't compromise safety either. Don't take off until you are comfortable with it. Don’t deep-cycle the propeller during the pre-takeoff runup, just make sure that it is responsive.
 

-good luck!

It seems the builder did just the breakin checklist ground run that is detailed before the 2.5hr first flight.  I think the time I mentioned earlier was the total time, not continuous run time.   

[carusoam]

Looks like she’s goin vertical Mav….

She got some fancy sheet metalwork too!

 

Let me know if you want the rest of the pics rotated…

-a-

[Browncbr1]

7 hours ago, carusoam said:

Looks like she’s goin vertical Mav….

She got some fancy sheet metalwork too!

 

Let me know if you want the rest of the pics rotated…

-a-

How do you rotate them?

[carusoam]

21 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

How do you rotate them?

I use the iPad…

From the camera app…

Click the pic…

click edit…

click the rotate option..

rotate…

save…

 

From MS…

import the pic from the saved pics…

 

There is often confusion between the I-software and the MS-software…

if the pic looks oriented already…

rotate it randomly…

save it…

orient it again the way you want…

save it again…

then import it…

 

That is the method I use to orient many pics around here…

probably takes a minute for each one…

 

@mooniac58 (FYI… how I orient pics still, for a few remaining pics that show up unoriented…)

 

 

Best regards,

-a-

[Browncbr1]

It’s just about buttoned up now.  Planning to hang the prop and do a short run up installation / leak check tomorrow.  
 

I gotta say, I’m glad I put the effort in on the baffle and exhaust.  I like the look.   I did foul up and order the wrong exhaust hardware, so correct new exhaust hardware is on the way.

[Guest]

Don’t forget to pre-oil the engine with a pressure pot before starting it.

Clarence

[Browncbr1]

46 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Don’t forget to pre-oil the engine with a pressure pot before starting it.

Clarence

Yes, definitely doing that.  Also going to fill up the new oil cooler and lines, then spray some oil in cylinders and motor with the starter to confirm oil pressure reading before starting. 

[Guest]

Did your new engine do something to you that you don’t like it anymore?

Clarence

[Browncbr1]

Ran the engine for about 4 minutes to just do ops/leak check.  I’ve gotta say, this is the smoothest running 4 cylinder I’ve ever run.  Feels like a smooth 6 cylinder actually. 
 

starting oil temp was 65 and resulted in a peak of 106psi at 1100 rpm, so will definitely be preheating this oil. That is on the jpi coming from the upper oil port.  The OEM gauge showed 75psi and it’s connected to the lower oil port.   I guess with new engines, things are tighter, so cool oil is more of an issue.  Previous engine build would go to 100psi at about 60 degrees at 1100rpm
 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Browncbr1