Trim for Take Off

[Pete M]

On 10/12/2021 at 7:22 PM, WaynePierce said:

So, I just got the plane back from annual and one of the things I had them double check and I went to the shop to observe and see for myself, was the steering linkage. I had quite an unexpected jaunt to the left of a great big, wide runway recently I also, on every take-off get a little "loose" right before I leave the tarmac. Everyone was very helpful in recommending the 8 Second Ride, and having the linkage looked at. Mine was fine, no slop, the alignment with the rudder was also correct. Then I watched a video on YouTube with a CFI-I and a student in the left seat of a M20J, and the CFI-I mentioned to the student he may need to put slight pressure on the yoke to keep the nose down on take-off. I never thought about my "squirrely" handling on take-off possibly being due to the front getting light right before take-off speed is reached. I will play with the trim and see if making it a little nose down may make the handling better. Where do you other "J" drivers trim for take-off? Center of the block, top of the block or bottom of the block?

Good Lord...So many cfi's talking out of their asses...Back pressure on the yoke will stop the wheel barrel effect and provide smoother take offs...very similar to soft field technique. Forward pressure will cause greater stresses on an already loaded nose gear.

My fellow aviators, seriously, find a mooney specific cfi...

Pete

[Derrickearly]

On 10/12/2021 at 7:22 PM, WaynePierce said:

So, I just got the plane back from annual and one of the things I had them double check and I went to the shop to observe and see for myself, was the steering linkage. I had quite an unexpected jaunt to the left of a great big, wide runway recently I also, on every take-off get a little "loose" right before I leave the tarmac. Everyone was very helpful in recommending the 8 Second Ride, and having the linkage looked at. Mine was fine, no slop, the alignment with the rudder was also correct. Then I watched a video on YouTube with a CFI-I and a student in the left seat of a M20J, and the CFI-I mentioned to the student he may need to put slight pressure on the yoke to keep the nose down on take-off. I never thought about my "squirrely" handling on take-off possibly being due to the front getting light right before take-off speed is reached. I will play with the trim and see if making it a little nose down may make the handling better. Where do you other "J" drivers trim for take-off? Center of the block, top of the block or bottom of the block?

I set the trim and flaps to takeoff.  I'll pull the yoke all the way back, and apply full power.  This is just like a soft field takeoff.  I relax the back pressure as soon as the nose wheel lifts.  I try to keep the nosewheel just an inch above the runway.  Soon after the mains will lift off, I lower the nose a bit to accelerate to 70 or 80 KIAS.

This method was taught to me by Chuck McGill out in San Diego when I was getting my 20J type training back in 2015.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Derrickearly

[PT20J]

@mike_elliott is this ^^^^ the way your guys teach it? 

[Hank]

27 minutes ago, PT20J said:

@mike_elliott is this ^^^^ the way your guys teach it? 

That's not how I was taught in Transition Training (not by Mike's people), nor in any of the MAPA PPPs I've attended. 

Then again, I fly a C, not a J.

[GeeBee]

Good grief, just fly the thing smoothly off the ground and don't screw it up! It's a tough airplane and it handles normally.

 

[cliffy]

I'm going to be a little facetious here by saying-

I know we have many here with lots of flying time and me with 20,000+hrs, 6 jet type ratings, 60 years flying, 23 years in my M20D with 2300 hrs in same I don't do what I read here for T/O or landing.

Question to self- "Would I land a Boeing by running the trim all the way aft so I don't have to pull on the yoke?

NO!  And an airplane is an airplane whether or not it weighs 2500 lbs or 250,000 lbs. 

Feet are used to keep the nose straight down the runway (with tires on the ground) IF the airplane has no mechanical problems.

What ever happened to teaching the correct trim setting for landing on final? It works whether its a Boeing or a Mooney or even a lowly 172.   Trim for final approach speed. 

I trim for a glide speed on final of about 75 MPH (wind and gusts and type of landing _short field) may adjust that speed a little but the trim is set for that. 

What ever happened to following the manual for proper T/O technique? If you do a short field T/O follow short field T/O procedures (I do one every once in a while for practice). If you are doing a normal  T/O follow the manual. 

I find that if I have trimmed for 75 on final and I move my trim wheel down two pushes (maybe 1/2 a turn) before T/O that on T/O if I start to pull back at about 60-65 MPH the airplane lifts off cleanly at around 70 accelerates to 80 quickly (gear up) and then I trim a little as I accelerate to my climb speed and retract flaps.  

No chance of forgetting the trim position after landing and having a way out of trim situation on T/O (either UP or DOWN)

If the trim reset is missed my way before T/O the airplane is still quite controllable at lift off near 75 MPH Its better if it is reset to 1/2 turn down. 

NOW this all holds true for my normal CG. If I put two in the back of course I have to compensate a little in trim to avoid an early rotation. NO different than a Heavy or light Boeing. 

Folks these are simple little airplanes  They fly just like any other airplane has for ever. As Al Mooney said- "They all fly through the same air "  Nothing complicated about them EXCEPT when we push them to areas they were not designed for. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by cliffy
spell

[mike_elliott]

2 hours ago, PT20J said:

@mike_elliott is this ^^^^ the way your guys teach it? 

Nope. We teach the Bob Kromer method. Trim to TO position, approx 5# back pressure on start of roll. She will fly off if trim set right.

[Pete M]

My E manual says back pressure...you dont do a fully aft yoke like a true soft field...thats why i said " similar". I did about 3/4 back. Each pilot will find his own sweet spot. Regardless, one doesnt pin the plane down. What irks me is cfi's pretending they know how to fly something they clearly dont. Too many of these threads lately. I wouldnt jump into my buddies bonanza and tell him how to fly it. If i had questions i'd go find a bo guy and ask so i could give my student the best info i could get....long day...

[Hank]

Here's my Owner's Manual. All I do different is a little more Up trim when two guys and no baggage, bottom of indicator at top of reference mark.

[carusoam]

18 minutes ago, philip_g said:

I just let it go down the runway until it wants to fly and then I let it.

 

I trim for 80mph on final and adjust power for the landing spot. Then I fly it until it doesn't want to fly and it lands and then catapults the nose down. Lol

Are you sure you don’t have a few pounds of pull on the yoke to have it break free from the runway?

Many Mooneys will start to get squirrelly as the mains lift before the nose wheel does…

So actively pulling the nose off the ground at Vr keeps things from getting squirrely…
 

PP thoughts only, not a CFI…

-a-

[Steve Yucht]

 Crosswinds really play a roll in the squirlyness of takeoff.  If I am taking off in a significant crosswind I trim down and rotate about 5 knots faster than normal.  If I am light (only me flying) I will trim at the top of the box (up). If I am heavy I will trim more at the bottom of the box (down) and rotate a couple of knots fast.  I never would push the yolk to keep her on the ground.  I believe in our planes (as long as there's no confirmed mechanical issue) the Mooney will get light in the nose but not take off until you distinctly rotate or just get fast enough with a bit of back pressure and patience.  It's about becoming comfortable with footwork for your plane.  Just my 2c after 400hrs in my O2. Definitely not a CFI!