81 J gear relays

[N201MKTurbo]

57 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

Riddle me this Batman.....So if you install a pair of "golf cart" solenoids on the landing gear actuator of your J model and subsequently it has a gear up because the solenoids failed at the worst possible time, should your insurance pay or reject your claim?  Just wondering hypothetically...

Like I have said on other threads I hope you clearly log any "unique" solution that use golf cart or washing machine solenoids and get a Field 337 from your A&P.  It will save future owners and his/her A&P's a lot of time and grief when they are trying to sort out issues.

The solenoids on my J started acting up and sticking (sometimes up, sometimes down) about 19 years ago, one of the many times Mooney was in bankruptcy.  Parts were hard to come by then also.  The 14 V Gear Relay Retrofit Kit 940084-501, which modifies all 12 volt M20 C, D, E, F, G, J and K was either not available or crazy in price.  I got the drawings for the Retrofit Kit and bought the parts directly.  The Retrofit Kit uses Kissling Solenoids made in Germany and as I believe do all modern Mooney's.  The difference between those and your "golf cart" solenoid is that they are double coil, Military Grade, shock and vibration proof and waterproof to IP67 & IP6K9K (can withstand steam pressure cleaning).  These things are bulletproof.  I bought mine straight from Germany although Mouser here does distribute some Kissling relays.  The proper part is 26.72.03 and is still made.

KI-Relay26-50A-ds-a4-K1166683-en-2012.pdf (te.com)

All you need then is bracket 800375-1 (which you can probably fabricate), 2 Spike Suppressor Diodes 21EG11A and some nuts, bolts and rivets.

BTW - with all this talk and marketing that the new Mooney management is committed to supporting legacy aircraft, why isn't this available from the factory?  It fits all legacy 12V aircraft (which is a lot) and landing gear components are pretty damn critical.

 

 

Hay, I just posted the numbers for reference so people could understand the wiring. Besides, Mooney was the one who designed in the golf cart solenoids. 

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

Riddle me this Batman.....So if you install a pair of "golf cart" solenoids on the landing gear actuator of your J model and subsequently it has a gear up because the solenoids failed at the worst possible time, should your insurance pay or reject your claim?  Just wondering hypothetically...

Like I have said on other threads I hope you clearly log any "unique" solution that use golf cart or washing machine solenoids and get a Field 337 from your A&P.  It will save future owners and his/her A&P's a lot of time and grief when they are trying to sort out issues.

The solenoids on my J started acting up and sticking (sometimes up, sometimes down) about 19 years ago, one of the many times Mooney was in bankruptcy.  Parts were hard to come by then also.  The 14 V Gear Relay Retrofit Kit 940084-501, which modifies all 12 volt M20 C, D, E, F, G, J and K was either not available or crazy in price.  I got the drawings for the Retrofit Kit and bought the parts directly.  The Retrofit Kit uses Kissling Solenoids made in Germany and as I believe do all modern Mooney's.  The difference between those and your "golf cart" solenoid is that they are double coil, Military Grade, shock and vibration proof and waterproof to IP67 & IP6K9K (can withstand steam pressure cleaning).  These things are bulletproof.  I bought mine straight from Germany although Mouser here does distribute some Kissling relays.  The proper part is 26.72.03 and is still made.

KI-Relay26-50A-ds-a4-K1166683-en-2012.pdf (te.com)

All you need then is bracket 800375-1 (which you can probably fabricate), 2 Spike Suppressor Diodes 21EG11A and some nuts, bolts and rivets.

BTW - with all this talk and marketing that the new Mooney management is committed to supporting legacy aircraft, why isn't this available from the factory?  It fits all legacy 12V aircraft (which is a lot) and landing gear components are pretty damn critical.

 

 

AC 23-27 and AC 20-62E are your friends.   Sometimes AC 20-41A and AC 43-18.    Also see the definitions and relevant ACs on standard parts, and even Owner Produced Parts.

Strict, narrow interpretations of some regs will ground the majority of the fleet.   Many parts are just no longer made, or no longer made by the original manufacturers.   Mooney used a lot of off-the-shelf parts in making airplanes.   So did most other manufacturers.   Fortunately the FAA has provided guidance on how to navigate these issues.

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

Riddle me this Batman.....So if you install a pair of "golf cart" solenoids on the landing gear actuator of your J model and subsequently it has a gear up because the solenoids failed at the worst possible time, should your insurance pay or reject your claim?  Just wondering hypothetically...

Like I have said on other threads I hope you clearly log any "unique" solution that use golf cart or washing machine solenoids and get a Field 337 from your A&P.  It will save future owners and his/her A&P's a lot of time and grief when they are trying to sort out issues.

The solenoids on my J started acting up and sticking (sometimes up, sometimes down) about 19 years ago, one of the many times Mooney was in bankruptcy.  Parts were hard to come by then also.  The 14 V Gear Relay Retrofit Kit 940084-501, which modifies all 12 volt M20 C, D, E, F, G, J and K was either not available or crazy in price.  I got the drawings for the Retrofit Kit and bought the parts directly.  The Retrofit Kit uses Kissling Solenoids made in Germany and as I believe do all modern Mooney's.  The difference between those and your "golf cart" solenoid is that they are double coil, Military Grade, shock and vibration proof and waterproof to IP67 & IP6K9K (can withstand steam pressure cleaning).  These things are bulletproof.  I bought mine straight from Germany although Mouser here does distribute some Kissling relays.  The proper part is 26.72.03 and is still made.

KI-Relay26-50A-ds-a4-K1166683-en-2012.pdf (te.com)

All you need then is bracket 800375-1 (which you can probably fabricate), 2 Spike Suppressor Diodes 21EG11A and some nuts, bolts and rivets.

BTW - with all this talk and marketing that the new Mooney management is committed to supporting legacy aircraft, why isn't this available from the factory?  It fits all legacy 12V aircraft (which is a lot) and landing gear components are pretty damn critical.

 

 

AC 23-27 and AC 20-62E are your friends.   Sometimes AC 20-41A and AC 43-18.    Also see the definitions and relevant ACs on standard parts, and even Owner Produced Parts.

Strict, narrow interpretations of some regs will ground the majority of the fleet.   Many parts are just no longer made, or no longer made by the original manufacturers.   Mooney used a lot of off-the-shelf parts in making airplanes.   So did most other manufacturers.   Fortunately the FAA has provided guidance on how to navigate these issues.

 

Edit:   I suppose it is not unlike the sonalert for the gear warning failing, so that you had no way to be reminded that the gear wasn't down.    I can't find that there is or ever was an FAA-PMA manufacturer, or TSO, or STC, for sonalerts.   

Edited May 10, 2021 by EricJ

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

AC 23-27 and AC 20-62E are your friends.   Sometimes AC 20-41A and AC 43-18.    Also see the definitions and relevant ACs on standard parts, and even Owner Produced Parts.

Strict, narrow interpretations of some regs will ground the majority of the fleet.   Many parts are just no longer made, or no longer made by the original manufacturers.   Mooney used a lot of off-the-shelf parts in making airplanes.   So did most other manufacturers.   Fortunately the FAA has provided guidance on how to navigate these issues.

 

Edit:   I suppose it is not unlike the sonalert for the gear warning failing, so that you had no way to be reminded that the gear wasn't down.    I can't find that there is or ever was an FAA-PMA manufacturer, or TSO, or STC, for sonalerts.   

Well as long as you clearly log it and your A&P signs off then that sounds great.

However since the "new" Mooney claims to be dedicated to supporting the legacy owners I don't even understand why this is an issue.  Why don't they provide approved list of currently available substitutes at the very least if they are not going to supply?  This would take the guesswork out of justifying what is comparable to "Std Parts".  These are critical parts that impact safety on a large population of the fleet.

Edited May 10, 2021 by 1980Mooney

[A64Pilot]

The problem is there is not a correct answer that I can determine.

1. Best solution is buy the part from the airframe manufacturer. All airframe manufacturers buy COTS parts, COTS parts means Commercial Off The Shelf.

What makes it a legal aircraft part is not testing or anything else, it’s being inducted into the airframe manufacturers quality control system, many want to think that what separates an aircraft part from other off the shelf parts is special testing, or being manufactured  to closer tolerances etc., and that may happen on rare occasion, but not usually. We bought parts direct from NAPA, and had the local glass shop cut our windshields from laminated glass.

But the parts are not available.

2. Another option an one that was suggested to me by an MSC is to buy the parts from a junkyard, he even was nice enough to google the part number and suggest who had them and I didn’t ask.

‘But how do you test and certify a part from a junk airplane as airworthy? Personally for electrical parts that you cannot determine the condition or wear on the part, I’d just as soon not go the junkyard route, if possible to avoid it.

3. Crossmatch the part number and determine if there is an identical part available under a different part number. Often this isn’t possible as airframe manufacturers often assign their own part number to a COTS part to prevent this form occurring, but fortunately Mooney chose not to on this part and the Mooney part is the original manufacturers part.

4. Junk the airplane, part it out, or seek a one time STC for a replacement part, Likely the FAA will push you towards a one time STC as opposed to a field approval as that reduces the liability on the inspectors part, although I question if there is any actual personal liability myself.

One time STC is neither fast or cheap and will most certainly involve an electrical DER.

‘I’ve not looked up the AC’s referenced, but two thoughts, first an AC,is ADVISORY it’s not a REGULATION, yes I have seen over and over the FAA treat an AC as if it were an FAR, but I’ve also seen the reverse, they shoud make them FAR’s but won’t because if they do so, then they accept responsibility and they avoid that whenever possible.

‘I know of the existence of AC’s for antique aircraft, for instance the “proper” battery for my C-140 hasn’t been manufactured for decades and the fuses for the electronics, also have been out of manufacturer for ever, even the steel for some older airframes doesn’t exist anymore, was replaced by the better 4130 long ago, and for those antique airframes, your best answer is the AC.

‘But, is an 81 J model an antique yet? I don’t know what the definition of antique is, perhaps it’s the age that no longer requires those big ugly N numbers?

Edited May 10, 2021 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

11 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

However since the "new" Mooney claims to be dedicated to supporting the legacy owners I don't even understand why this is an issue.  Why don't they provide approved list of currently available substitutes at the very least if they are not going to supply?  This would take the guesswork out of justifying what is comparable to "Std Parts".  These are critical parts that impact safety on a large population of the fleet.

I don’t think they can do that, but I’m not sure, to do so in effect is Certifying someone else’s parts, and I don’t think a PMA manufacturer can, they can make others parts, theirs which of course is what’s usual, but it may not be worth it financially to Mooney to source a supply and stock it, not if the sales volume isn’t there.

No longer supporting the older fleet is called “Orphaning” and while of course they can do that, the FAA frowns on it, they don’t require you to support the old fleet, but they are pleased when you do, and “playing ball” with the FAA is often smart for a manufacturer. The FAA, in this case the MIDO and ACO can be extremely helpful, or they can be just the opposite. 

[N201MKTurbo]

If you do decide to use the Ametek part, which is the best option. The only difference I can see is the original were cad plated and the new ones are bright zinc plated. Make sure you find a genuine Ametek part. the world is overflowing with Chinese knock offs. I wouldn't use them. 

[N201MKTurbo]

The other option is to call SkyTec, who sells most of the Ametek solenoids with PMA. See if they will get a PMA for this one.

[A64Pilot]

I believe the original part was a White/ Rogers and is no longer manufactured.

Avoiding Chinese parts is unfortunately just not possible, forever I only bought Timken bearings as I thought them the best, but Timken is I think Chinese sourced parts now.

‘But that’s not all bad actually, Chinese manufacturing can turn out excellent parts, When we bought the Thrush plant twenty or so years ago there were probably ar least 5 ship sets of Chinese manufacturers flight controls, Ayers corp ad them manufactured and had to ship raw materials even rivets to them for traceability, anyway the quality of workmanship was exceptional. actually much better then we made at the plant, all the rivets were driven perfectly and even the balance was dead on.

[A64Pilot]

38 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The other option is to call SkyTec, who sells most of the Ametek solenoids with PMA. See if they will get a PMA for this one.

Skytec was who we went with at Thrush as they are a very good relay, hermetically sealed etc. I think they are a PMA part, so if they have a cross match, they would in my opinion be a better part than the original.

Actually it may have been hytec, I sent a message to the electrician to ask

Edited May 10, 2021 by A64Pilot

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

I believe the original part was a White/ Rogers and is no longer manufactured.

Avoiding Chinese parts is unfortunately just not possible, forever I only bought Timken bearings as I thought them the best, but Timken is I think Chinese sourced parts now.

‘But that’s not all bad actually, Chinese manufacturing can turn out excellent parts, When we bought the Thrush plant twenty or so years ago there were probably ar least 5 ship sets of Chinese manufacturers flight controls, Ayers corp ad them manufactured and had to ship raw materials even rivets to them for traceability, anyway the quality of workmanship was exceptional. actually much better then we made at the plant, all the rivets were driven perfectly and even the balance was dead on.

The original was an RBM 70-311221.  The factory alternative was a Cutler-Hammer 6041H53.  If you blow up your pic you can see the "RBM" stamped on the top of the can of one of the solenoids.

Edited May 10, 2021 by 1980Mooney

[A64Pilot]

I got White / Rogers from a googling the part number and it came up as a White / Rogers part number.

‘it may not have as I was more trying to find a part than I was who made it.

‘But the specs are a 100 amp continuous duty solenoid. The Actuator itself says it’s a 55 amp draw and can pull 2,000 lbs.

‘I assume that it’s seriously derated as the gear CB is 15 amps on my airplane, or the CB is only the power to actuate the relay and the relay is infused, like for instance the starter and master relay are. But I doubt that the actuator is unfused.

‘If it’s not and the actuator can only pull 15 amps, then a 100 amp continuous duty solenoid is some serious overkill. especially when it’s only drawing power for 5 sec or so.

15 amps at 12v is only about 180W, which is only 1/4 HP or so, I guess it takes less than 1/4 HP to run the gear as it used to be manual on a lever?

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Skytec was who we went with at Thrush as they are a very good relay, hermetically sealed etc. I think they are a PMA part, so if they have a cross match, they would in my opinion be a better part than the original.

Actually it may have been hytec, I sent a message to the electrician to ask

I’m pretty sure Skytec doesn’t make solenoids. They just market PMA versions that are probably manufactured by Ametek. 
 

Skytec would order special runs of the standard solenoids with certified parts. Certified parts just means that all the component parts are traceable back to their original manufacturer. And the parts need to be assembled under a quality system, which most domestic manufacturers are. The PMA holder is responsible for assuring that all those things are in place.
 

The PMA process doesn’t assure that it is a good part or a bad part, just that it is the same part that was approved when you got the PMA.

Where I work, we do a lot of government work. They demand certified parts. A couple of years ago this was a big PITA, but it is getting much easier since so many people are demanding it. A few months ago McMaster Carr finally started offering certs for their parts.

The cert for a $5 box of screws might be $10, but a few years ago it was $100 for a $5 box of screws with certs.

[A64Pilot]

I just got answered, it is Kissling relays.

‘PMA means the manufacturer has Parts Manufacturing Approval, it’s not the parts, but who makes them, but parts are called PMA because they are made by a manufacturer that has PMA approval.

https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/design_approvals/pma/

Many parts however are manufactured to a TSO, which is a list of specifications that a part has to meet to be a approved part, a tire for instance. Many parts have no TSO, they were just sort of grandfathered in, Landing lights for instance, since there was no TSO initially there was no standard for LED”s to meet so they could only be approved by STC or field approval. So of course it’s a mixed bag, always has been as far as what an approved part means.

‘So often times a PMA manufacturer does manufacturer a TSO part.

‘Now as an airframe manufacturer in order to buy a purchased part and induct it into our QA system and make it an aircraft part, we had to have ‘Certs” which state lot number etc that a part was made.

‘I believe you are talking about certs when you say Mcmaster Carr and others supply, but certs are a birth certificate, they don’t make a part approved, but make it easier to make it an approved part.

 

re-read your post, we are saying pretty much the same thing 

Edited May 10, 2021 by A64Pilot

[N201MKTurbo]

21 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I just got answered, it is Kissling relays.

‘PMA means the manufacturer has Parts Manufacturing Approval, it’s not the parts, but who makes them, but parts are called PMA because they are made by a manufacturer that has PMA approval.

https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/design_approvals/pma/

Many parts however are manufactured to a TSO, which is a list of specifications that a part has to meet to be a approved part, a tire for instance. Many parts have no TSO, they were just sort of grandfathered in, Landing lights for instance, since there was no TSO initially there was no standard for LED”s to meet so they could only be approved by STC or field approval. So of course it’s a mixed bag, always has been as far as what an approved part means.

‘So often times a PMA manufacturer does manufacturer a TSO part.

‘Now as an airframe manufacturer in order to buy a purchased part and induct it into our QA system and make it an aircraft part, we had to have ‘Certs” which state lot number etc that a part was made.

‘I believe you are talking about certs when you say Mcmaster Carr and others supply, but certs are a birth certificate, they don’t make a part approved, but make it easier to make it an approved part.

 

re-read your post, we are saying pretty much the same thing 

I attended an FAA seminar about how to get a PMA about a year ago. The seminar was by the lady that signs them off. It is not as hard as some might think. 

It looks like Skytec/Lamar solenoids are not TSO, but they have service letters from Cessna authorizing their use. You can certainly can have a PMA without a TSO. Manufacturing it is one thing, but installing it is another.

[1980Mooney]

40 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

I just got answered, it is Kissling relays.

‘PMA means the manufacturer has Parts Manufacturing Approval, it’s not the parts, but who makes them, but parts are called PMA because they are made by a manufacturer that has PMA approval.

https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/design_approvals/pma/

Many parts however are manufactured to a TSO, which is a list of specifications that a part has to meet to be a approved part, a tire for instance. Many parts have no TSO, they were just sort of grandfathered in, Landing lights for instance, since there was no TSO initially there was no standard for LED”s to meet so they could only be approved by STC or field approval. So of course it’s a mixed bag, always has been as far as what an approved part means.

‘So often times a PMA manufacturer does manufacturer a TSO part.

‘Now as an airframe manufacturer in order to buy a purchased part and induct it into our QA system and make it an aircraft part, we had to have ‘Certs” which state lot number etc that a part was made.

‘I believe you are talking about certs when you say Mcmaster Carr and others supply, but certs are a birth certificate, they don’t make a part approved, but make it easier to make it an approved part.

 

re-read your post, we are saying pretty much the same thing 

Kissling is exactly what I posted above.  If you read the notes in the Mooney Parts Manual it states the the RBM needs to be replaced by the Retrofit Kit 940084-501.  That kit includes the Kissling 26.72.03 which is still made.  And Kissling is what Mooney was using on the new planes that they built over the past 20 years.  Seems like we keep circling back to what Mooney has certified.

KI-Relay26-50A-ds-a4-K1166683-en-2012.pdf (te.com)

I get it that owners of 40 year old planes want to substitute low cost parts.  But installing parts that are not manufactured to a standard nor approved by the plane manufacturer is the difference between Experimental and Certified. 

It would be helpful if an A&P on this site might comment.

[ArtVandelay]

The original was an RBM 70-311221.  The factory alternative was a Cutler-Hammer 6041H53.  If you blow up your pic you can see the "RBM" stamped on the top of the can of one of the solenoids.

I noticed the retrofit items, anyone know what relays are used?

[A64Pilot]

Referencing the parts manual page that you circled, the alternate isn’t a Kissling relay, it’s a Cutler- Hammer. which when I called wasn’t available either, it’s the relay that I found only one at $800 for NOS, the rest were take off from junkyards.

‘Plus it requires apparently the retrofit kit that you also circled, that guess what, also isn’t available.

‘I would prefer a Kissling relay as I chose them at Thrush as they were far superior to what we had been using, but I know of no way to use one. Glad to hear newer aircraft have them, but that doesn’t mean I can put them on my older aircraft.

Oh, and I’ve been an A&P since 1988 if memory serves, it was well before the Gulf War because I got my A&P before my Airplane Commercial / Instrument and I had all before the war.

 

On edit, in my opinion as long as I can assure that form, fit and function are identical and the cross matched part meets or exceeds the original parts specs that it’s a minor alteration. I see it as no different from the manual calling for a GE landing light and I substituting a Sylvania as long as I can ensure it’s the same wattage and functions and fits identical to the GE called out

You will of course get different opinions from different people

Edited May 10, 2021 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

2 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

I noticed the retrofit items, anyone know what relays are used?

It was explained to me that the retrofit kit was needed to use the alternate relays, I was quoted I think $2,100 for the kit and told none were available.

 

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

It would be helpful if an A&P on this site might comment.

Several of us have already.

 

[ragedracer1977]

5 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

It would be helpful if an A&P on this site might comment.

A bunch already have.  

[1980Mooney]

3 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I noticed the retrofit items, anyone know what relays are used?

It uses the Kissling solenoids/relays which I already highlighted 

[A64Pilot]

13 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

It uses the Kissling solenoids/relays which I already highlighted 

What you circled is RBM and Cutler-Hammer, unless I missed something. Does Kissling make them? Are they the parent company? Honest question not trying it be a smart arse, companies are bought all of the time and sometimes the new company bought the old companies name too and keeps it.

I was told when I called LASAR’s parts dept that the retrofit kit was needed to use the Cutler-Hammer relays if you had the old RBM relays, but that neither the kit nor the relays were available, there were some used relays available but how do you determine the condition of a relay removed off of a junked airplane? I’n the Army we called that Cannibalization and the rules to use a cannibalized part we’re so stringent that except for something like a panel or similar it just wasn’t possible.

There is a reason why when you buy electrical components at a car parts store that they won’t take returns, and that’s that you can’t determine if the part is any good or not from a visual inspection.

Edited May 11, 2021 by A64Pilot

[1980Mooney]

[1980Mooney]