ATTN: Anyone with a TSIO 360 MB engine in a 14v 231

[Falcon Man]

If you are using any lightweight starter on a TCM TSIO360-MB engine in a Mooney with a 14v electrical system - BEWARE. In my Mooney 262 the lightweight starter caused the starter T-Drive gear and shaft to fracture in flight with a resultant simultaneous vacuum and low voltage warning. Fortunately, my airplane is equipped with a second alternator and electric vacuum backups. The failure stopped the T-drive from working properly and I had a partial loss of power due to the turbo filling with oil. 

My IA did some research and it turns out that TCM does not recommend any version of a lightweight starter on this engine in a 14v Mooney (28V system is OK). The only starter safe to use is the old version PN: 646238-R.

I think that the only models with a 14v system running the MB engine are the converted 231's.

It's always something,

Jeff

[carusoam]

Wow Jeff!

That is an interesting Pirep.

Got any pictures from the clean up?

Were there any hints of the failure before it all let loose?

Best regards,

-a-

[milotron]

Wow that sucks. That accessory drive is crazy expensive to replace too. My 262 HAD a lightweight starter installed and removed before I bought it, but didn't realize there was any formal guidance from TCM against it.  Thanks for that.

 

iain

[Falcon Man]

There was no warning whatsoever. At this point one gear and shaft was broken and that is $3200. Hopefully the rest of the T drive is ok because those gears are $12K to replace.

I will ask the shop to take some pictures.

 

Jeff

[Jerry Pressley]

Call Brent at 423 273 355  he has an engine for parts

[Jerry Pressley]

423 273 3755

[Falcon Man]

Jerry,

Thanks for the contact info. My engine is a TSIO360-MB4B version which is a later version than the MB so I will call Brent to see what version he has.

Jeff

[Falcon Man]

Jerry,

The phone number 423-273-3755 just goes to a busy signal. I have tried it hourly since you emailed. I am thinking it isn't working. Do you have any more info about Brent?

Jeff

[One Whiskey Hotel]

I was just talking to Kerry McIntyre about this very issue, was yours the forced landing (fortunately at an airport) in Washington?

I had intended to share this advisory after hearing of it a few days ago but have been caught up with all the other pokers in my fire, thank you for sharing this and glad you're alright.

Edited August 12, 2020 by One Whiskey Hotel
corrected spelling errors

[One Whiskey Hotel]

Also, from what I gather this was an issue seen on TCM 470 and 520 engines but this is the first and/or most recent on the 360's. Sounds like Continental quietly changed their specification on starters to avoid the bad press of an AD. Were these problems identified on Lycomings, with their Attorneys Gone Wild approach, it would have been. Wish in one hand, you-know-what in the other.....that being said, it sounds to me like something to regard as relatively serious. And it would be applicable on LB (and whatever GB's may still exist) 231's with lightweight starters alike.

Edited August 8, 2020 by One Whiskey Hotel
Add: Applicable to LB and GB 360 variants

[Falcon Man]

Yes, I am the one who was on a long straight in final approach to KPUW (Pullman, WA) so it was essentially a no brainer. I had just flown thru a rain squall when the vacuum/alternator gave out so I was trying to figure out how it might be caused by the moisture - duh.

The problem has only been seen on the dual pad version of the TSIO360 engines. I spoke with Greg @ Niagra Air Parts and he seemed to know more about this than anyone else because they are the T drive specialists. He could likely answer about the TSIO360GB or LB engines, but they do not have the dual pad accessory case.

He said the new crop of engineers were the ones who decided on lightweight starters, ignorant of the previous engineering done by the old farts. Likely they thought their education made them smarter, and we know now they weren't in this case. Kerry said there isn't a service bulletin/letter.

I wish I could back charge Continental Aerospace for my Beta testing in the field 

Jeff

[carusoam]

10 hours ago, Falcon Man said:

Jerry,

The phone number 423-273-3755 just goes to a busy signal. I have tried it hourly since you emailed. I am thinking it isn't working. Do you have any more info about Brent?

Jeff

@Jerry Pressley Jeff is looking for you again...

 

Good to invite @M20Doc to the party as well... (262 starter, T drive issue, light weight starter)

-a-

[anthonydesmet]

@Falcon Man thanks for the heads up.  Still waiting another couple weeks to co,we out of overhaul but will put this on my radar to ask

[231MJ]

The Niagra Air Parts guys know the T drives very well.  They have worked on mine and strongly recommended NOT going with a light weight starter.  Interestingly they also recommended using a "less slippery" oil, I was using Aeroshell at the time.  A year a go my starter was cranking slow so I installed a rebuilt starter and it was a great improvement.  

[Guest]

Light weight starters on Continental engine tend to lighten your wallet at a great rate with starter adapter repairs.

Clarence