Avidyne Question

[midlifeflyer]

For the folks who fly with Avidyne:

When I give an IPC, one of the tasks I include is a change in a procedure to see how the pilot deals with it. One of the changes I do is alternative missed instructions. An example from my home area if you want to take a look is, we will be doing the VOR-A at KSCR. The published misses is a turn back to the VOR. Instead, while we are still enroute, I (as ATC) will tell the pilot I have alternative issed instructions and, when ready to copy, give them "On the missed, proceed direct OPUXY. Climb and maintain 3,000" (for purists, OPUXY is an IAF for one of the other approaches; it is not a published alternate missed).

In the Garmins it's a piece of cake. It probably is in the Avidyne too, but I can't figure it out. I've tried deleting the published missed and I've tried adding the new waypoint to the end of the flight plan, neither of which have worked. 

[Cruiser]

one way to do this is scroll to the end of the missed and insert the new waypoint then at the missed tap Direct to ------

********** or *************

at any point just tap enter twice or the Direct to button and type in the waypoint.

[midlifeflyer]

Thank you @Cruiser. I knew it had to be easy!  In fact, it's exactly the same as in the Garmin boxes. I think what threw meet off was the "Missed Approach" topic heading in the Avidyne. It made me think I could just remove it. 

Not to brilliant today

[1964-M20E]

If you know the missed holding point will be different than published before you start the procedure then as stated above you can go to the end of the flight plan and add the additional way point and then just go direct to it after you declare you are missed.  An alternative would be after you declared missed you could delete the procedure and then add the way point at the end of the flight plane or enter directly but that is a lot of activities while at the beginning stages of the missed approach.

If you have added the way point to the end of the flight plan before beginning the procedure then when you hit the direct button it will bring you right to that point.  Then you select your next procedure and go direct to the IAF you have selected and begin flying that approach.

Once the hold point has been entered you can go into the FMS/FPL mode and modify the parameters of the hold , right or left turns, length of inbound and outbound legs, heading to return to the hold point etc.

The Avidyne simulator works good for these questions.

I know from my experience when practicing  approaches with ATC unless I request the official missed procedure they always give me alternate instructions.

[M016576]

39 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

I know from my experience when practicing  approaches with ATC unless I request the official missed procedure they always give me alternate instructions.

And most of the time they involve a climb on runway heading followed by some vectors.

[midlifeflyer]

21 minutes ago, M016576 said:

And most of the time they involve a climb on runway heading followed by some vectors.

Usually, yes. Not always. A lot of that depends on airspace. The "normal "ATC vectored missed at KAPA south of Denver International is (was) a right or left climbing turn back to the south, not straight ahead into military and Bravo airspace. Plus, since being cleared (or approved) for  practice approach under VFR does not include clearance for the published missed, special  instructions are necessary anyway.

Then, there are some approaches with an alternate missed hold which goes to another fix. In some cases they are on the chart; in other cases not. in either case, they are not in the avionics' procedure database , so the same adjustment steps are necessary.

Edited November 28, 2019 by midlifeflyer

[kortopates]

We have a missed procedure in SOCAL where the missed has a maximum altitude leg where you may have to descend rather than climb - off KVNY.

One good thing about alternate missed procedures is that when in use they come with NOTAMs providing some of the otherwise missing detail on navigating to the alternate fix.

They are so common on our ground based Nav approaches I assumed all have them by now. Do some ground based nav based approaches not have them yet? Of course they all need them.


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[midlifeflyer]

W, I have seen at least one significant difference between the way the IFD and the GTN handles this. I can't seem to delete the published missed or its waypoints in the IFD. I can in the GTN. IOW, in the GTN I can make that alternate fix the very next waypoint in sequence after the runway.

[Mooney in Oz]

17 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

I can't seem to delete the published missed or its waypoints in the IFD.

Don't need to. 

Just keep pressing the PROC smart key and go through the instrument approach selections until you come across the approach and IAF you wish to conduct.

Easy peasy.

It might be an idea to download the IFD app onto your iPad (if you have one) from iTunes and practice the buttonology for yourself before any subsequent IPC tests.  It's free and a good training tool. You can download your Jepp data when the app is open so you have the latest approaches and change between the 540 and 440 as it does both..

[midlifeflyer]

I'm not sure you understood the comment or the scenario. My fault for not being clearer.

I am not changing approaches and I am not changing IAFs. I am going to fly a published approach. But I am not going to fly the published missed which gets loaded with the approach. Instead, I am instructed to fly to a different fix if I go missed. That the new fix happens to be an IAF  for another Approach is really irrelevant to the question. It was just a point of reference for those who might take a look. It could as easily be an enroute waypoint or a published alternate missed approach holding fix. Only relevant point is, it is not the published missed in the database. 

@Cruiser gave the simple answer. Scroll down past the missed and add the new waypoint to the flight plan. Works in both Garmin and Avidyne boxes (and likely others).

The only difference I can see between the two is that, with the Garmin I can also delete the missed approach waypoints I am not going to use. Not that big a deal, just more tapping/scrolling-pushing when workload is low (assuming I get the change from Approach) and less tapping/scrolling-pushing when I go missed.

BTW, for those who suggested it, yes I do have both the iOS and PC versions of the app. That's how I test all these things out.

Edited November 29, 2019 by midlifeflyer

[midlifeflyer]

19 hours ago, kortopates said:

We have a missed procedure in SOCAL where the missed has a maximum altitude leg where you may have to descend rather than climb - off KVNY.

One good thing about alternate missed procedures is that when in use they come with NOTAMs providing some of the otherwise missing detail on navigating to the alternate fix.

They are so common on our ground based Nav approaches I assumed all have them by now. Do some ground based nav based approaches not have them yet? Of course they all need them.


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Plenty do not.  And many which do have an alternate missed  (whether or  not charted)  use the exact same ground based navaids, as the charted one, but a different routing. I think it's more about TERPS-protected alternatives in busy B and C terminal areas for traffic management.

[midlifeflyer]

@kortopates, an extra thank you. I had been looking or a good real world example to use. The ones I looked at near me either have none charted or use the same MAHF as the primary one. So I looked in the San Diego area and found the KSEE LOC D. Here's the comparison of the GTN and IFD handling of the issue. I am, perhaps obviously, working o the assumption that the pilot would want to do this early and not while trying to actually do the missed. Both are really cool in being able to actually add the holding pattern itself  

Only real difference is that the new MAHF appears immediately after the MAP on the GTN. On the IFD, you would still have to scroll down past the published missed. At least that is what I see with my limited IFD knowledge, so if someone can correct me, it would definitely be appreciated. 

And, BTW, no, this is not one of those "one is the best and the other sucks" comparisons  

[kortopates]

The other thing about the missed on the Avidyne as understand from Avidyne users (I have yet to work with anyone that didn't have Gamin's) is that the Avidyne units don't suspend crossing the MAWP but automatically sequence to begin the missed approach. I don't understand this since the pilot is screwed if they are intending to circle. There must be some missing information to this.

Are you sure about the ground based nav approaches using the same "navaid" for the alternate missed approach? As I understand from AIM 5-4-55 Arrival Procedures ....

c.  Some locations may have a preplanned alternate missed approach procedure for use in the event the primary NAVAID used for the missed approach procedure is unavailable. To avoid confusion, the alternate missed approach instructions are not published on the chart. However, the alternate missed approach holding pattern will be depicted on the instrument approach chart for pilot situational awareness and to assist ATC by not having to issue detailed holding instructions. The alternate missed approach may be based on NAVAIDs not used in the approach procedure or the primary missed approach.

But maybe your point may be based on the quoted bolded text at the end - which I didn't quite understand since it seems in conflict with the earlier statement "in the event the primary NAVAID used for the missed approach procedure is unavailable". 

Can you share an example of an alternate missed approach that uses the same ground based navaid? I have yet to see one. And any comments on how that is suppose to work when the navaid goes out? They would have to issue yet another alternate missed approach procedure?

[1964-M20E]

It really is easy.  After the initial procedure has been programed into the IFD insert the anticipated alternate waypoint at the end of the flight plan.  Once you have declared missed and started your climb press the direct button select the alternate waypoint and activate it.  The IFD will direct you to that waypoint.  Should you be setting up for another procedure or heading to another airport after you can then begin programming this in.  However, if you know this before you begin flying you can program all of this on the ground before you take off.

You can program you initial flight plan and destination, procedure which waypoint you want to start the procedure at (if you file this waypoint in your IFR plan then you are already set with ATC), your alternate missed waypoint your next flight plan and airport the procedure you want to fly at that airport etc..