panther1400 Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 What do you recommend as a list of steps to go through when considering buying a plane from across the country? What are your feelings about a plane with 2 gear up landings in its history (11 and 20 years ago)? Quote
animalmover Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 I don't mind the dammage as long as it was fixed correctly. I would have the seller send as many pictures as he could until you are comfortable enough to think about a pre-buy inspection ( it's a buyers market ). Then find a mooney service center for the inspection ( be there for it if you can ) and go from there. Good Luck! Quote
moodychief Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 I check report.myairplane.com (check all the boxes) and flightaware.com to see if it has been flown in the system. Flightaware also give me an idea of cruise performance at altitude by viewing the flight log and graphs. Most people will tell you that gear up landings are not a big issue if repaired correctly with a complete engine teardown inspection. My C model had a gear up landing in the late 90s and other than the engine tear down it only had minimal damage to belly skins and the tail tie-down ring. Quote
John Pleisse Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 I think damage history presents an unknown. There is this undertow in the Mooney community that our planes are so well designed and built that a gear up on a Mooney is a non issue and involves only superficial damage. This notion has been heavily propogated by well-known Mooney brokers who work hard to sell gear up planes. But none of this has ever been backed up by solid engineering. When in doubt....throw it out. Quote
scottfromiowa Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 I agree with "when in doubt, throw it out", but all gear ups are not created equal. Were they both gear failures/lack of extension on runways or off field events? Did the gear Nose or main fail? This would likely result in wing/tail damage in addition to the common belly skins and belly skin attach point, inner flap hinge, nose gear doors, exhaust and belly strobe damage. A gear up is often NOT structural beyond the above replacement. These are often replaced with upgraded fiberglass one piece belly skins and over-lapping (superior) nose gear doors. The engine of course should be torn down and repaired/inspected as needed. This should ALL be documented in the logs. (repairs) ask to see them. If they are NOT available see "when in doubt"...I had a gear up in my 1966 M20E and the plane was better for the result. Newly overhauled engine, oil cooler, new prop, new exhaust, new fiberglass belly, flap hinge and gear doors. Have someone who knows Mooneys review the logs (engine AND airframe) before you spend any money traveling or coordinating for a pre-buy. Good luck! It IS a buyers market out there. Have fun and be patient looking for "your Mooney". Quote
Sabremech Posted August 8, 2011 Report Posted August 8, 2011 An airplane with damage history and proper repairs with good documentation is no different than any other airplane unless you feel you must have that pristine only flown twice a year bird. Mine has been geared up twice in it's history. Several good things have come from it in my opinion, the one piece belly, a fairly recent teardown inspection from Lycoming on the engine, and a new propeller (no AD against it). If there is an airplane that you like that has had a gear up, by all means give it a look and have a pre-buy done. You can choose an MSC or an A&P/IA. I did my own prebuy as it's my butt it's carrying and I work on airplanes far more complicated than the M20C that I purchased. I know what I bought and have no regrets. I just keep making it better the longer I have it. So don't shut yourself out from not looking at an airplane that has had a gear up. Quote
panther1400 Posted August 8, 2011 Author Report Posted August 8, 2011 So will this big stock market situation help buyers by pushing planes lower or go the other way and help then go higher? Quote
richardheitzman Posted August 9, 2011 Report Posted August 9, 2011 Also check to see what was damaged, who repaired it, where did they get the repair parts. Were the parts "owner fabricated" or bought from Mooney? A recent aircraft that I looked at and passed had "fabricated" parts for major wing spar sections. So damage is ok, as long as it is repaired in a manner that is acceptable and passes a pre buy inspection. Quote
jetdriven Posted August 9, 2011 Report Posted August 9, 2011 That is some seriously narrow-minded thinking. Throw out all airplanes that have had any corrosion. Left out in the rain. Been repainted. Any parts replaced. Had a prop strike. that pretty much eliminates all planes. A common mistake new buyers make is they only consider top-of-the-market cream puff hangar queens that are shiny. They refuse to consider average aircraft which may be a good value. The hangar queens often need several thousand $ to get into shape. When an aircraft has been repaired properly is it substantialy identical to one that has not been damaged. The Service and Maintenance Manual is very specific on repair methods as is AC 43.13. Make sure these repairs were done according to that. The upside is you do get a few grand off for a plane that really is not different than one that hasn't been geared up. You pass most of that discount along to someone who buys it from you. As others have said often the aircraft is better than it was before, one-piece fiberglass belly panels, new engines and props, etc. As long as it has flown a few hours, preferrably a thousand or more, reaffirms the repairs were proper. If it was from 20-30 years ago the value impact is minimal. Quote: N4352H I think damage history presents an unknown. There is this undertow in the Mooney community that our planes are so well designed and built that a gear up on a Mooney is a non issue and involves only superficial damage. This notion has been heavily propogated by well-known Mooney brokers who work hard to sell gear up planes. But none of this has ever been backed up by solid engineering. When in doubt....throw it out. Quote
Vref Posted August 9, 2011 Report Posted August 9, 2011 Quote: N4352H I think damage history presents an unknown. There is this undertow in the Mooney community that our planes are so well designed and built that a gear up on a Mooney is a non issue and involves only superficial damage. This notion has been heavily propogated by well-known Mooney brokers who work hard to sell gear up planes. But none of this has ever been backed up by solid engineering. When in doubt....throw it out. Quote
Jerry 5TJ Posted August 9, 2011 Report Posted August 9, 2011 I side with the "good repairs are fine" group. My previous Mooney "E" model had done a belly flop after a clever accident when on roll-out the pilot unlatched the gear lever. {Aside: He told me he and the co-pilot together could not hold the Johnson bar vertical at that point.} The repairs were extensive and well-documented. Contrary to site lore, a lot more than "a few belly skins" needed repair as the pushrods that run the gear were bent and had even caused secondary damage. I think it was as good as new, and better than it was before the accident, when fixed. I'd rather have a fully-rebuilt, well-maintained old Mooney than one with thin, clean, terse logs spanning five decades. Quote
jetdriven Posted August 9, 2011 Report Posted August 9, 2011 I'm sure there are people who will deliberately hide or conceal damage history or repairs. That is outright fraud and could be committed on any plane. Our plane was geared up in 2000, and yes it has a stack of photos, and a parts list detaiing every single item replaced. Gear doors, belly skins, tie down rings, wing reskin, pushrods, fillets, etc. INvoices from Van Bortel with all the engine parts. It also got a fresh overhaul with all new parts, a new prop, etc. it was even discussed by a buyer on thsi forum who eventually passed on it because it was "damaged" even though Parker pointed out you could paint it, new 430 garmin stack, ASPEN, and a bunch of other stuff still be in under 100K. Funny how inexperienced buyers will pass on a damage history plane, and end up with a shiny, overpriced 1500 hours SNEW hangar queen that needs an engine or a spar in the first year. The best airplane is one with dead bugs on it. Inspect it well, but throwing it out because it has damage history is ludicrous. Same as refusing to consider your plane if it were for sale, after all, it has damage history as well. Quote
fantom Posted August 9, 2011 Report Posted August 9, 2011 Quote: jetdriven Funny how inexperienced buyers will pass on a damage history plane, and end up with a shiny, overpriced 1500 hours SNEW hangar queen that needs an engine in the first year. Quote
John Pleisse Posted August 9, 2011 Report Posted August 9, 2011 Quote: jetdriven it was even discussed by a buyer on thsi forum who eventually passed on it because it was "damaged" even though Parker pointed out you could paint it, new 430 garmin stack, ASPEN, and a bunch of other stuff still be in under 100K. Quote
jetdriven Posted August 9, 2011 Report Posted August 9, 2011 Damage history doesn't factor into the equation for putting money in it. It did make it more affordable to buy. I dont mind older radios and paint. Buying something to "fix up" is almost always a losing proposition. If I wanted super nice, I would have bought N201QT as it was for sale the same time and it had 430/530, etc. It sold for top dollar, quickly, and guess what, a gear up landing in 1996. All things considered a NDH airplane is worth more than thes same ome sitting beside it that has history. Just dont overpay for the NDH airplane, nor devalue the one with history excessively. Quote
N601RX Posted August 9, 2011 Report Posted August 9, 2011 Quote: jerry-N5911Q Contrary to site lore, a lot more than "a few belly skins" needed repair as the pushrods that run the gear were bent and had even caused secondary damage. I think it was as good as new, and better than it was before the accident, when fixed. Quote
scottfromiowa Posted August 9, 2011 Report Posted August 9, 2011 I have photos of my gear up. Pretty unexciting. Paint off nose gear doors and belly panels. Unfortunately my three blade prop helped support the plane so NO LOPRESTI cowl for me... Quote
aerobat95 Posted August 9, 2011 Report Posted August 9, 2011 I would buy a airplane with a damage history....so long as the repairs were made correctly. Chances are you can get a little more for your money. Also, if the damage was a long time ago and the plane has been flying since....chances are its ok. Quote
danb35 Posted August 9, 2011 Report Posted August 9, 2011 As a newbie buyer a few years ago, I bought a plane with a 20-year-old gear-up (and a much more recent prop strike). I figured that if the plane had been flying fine for the 20 years since, and an MSC prebuy didn't indicate any squawks in that area, that history didn't bother me. After all, all the relevant structure is visible when you pull the access panels--you aren't going to hide anything. The prop strike got me a 0 SMOH engine and a new prop--I figured it was worth it. Of course, by today's standards, I overpaid, but that's a result of the economic downturn since I bought. Quote
DaV8or Posted August 9, 2011 Report Posted August 9, 2011 Quote: Vref ...my 2 eurocent's on the topic Luc Quote
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