Magneto SOS

[bnicolette]

Hi all,

I need some advice and info on shops that do magnetos.

We put in all new lord mounts for the engine last friday and also cleaned the injectors on my 1982 M20J.  This morning I got a call from my mechanic as he was going to dig a little deeper into the oil around the bottom of the mag that he has been a bit concerned about and keeping an eye on.  He told me that there is oil getting to the mag, but not getting into the components yet, so he doesn't see it as a safety of flight issue as of yet, but might be something that we might want to send out and get corrected with some seal or just have it overhauled?  What is everybody's thoughts on this?  Does it make sense to pull the mag just to have the seal replaced or should we just go ahead and have it overhauled?  I know the last 500 hour coupling inspection was done only about a hundred hours ago or so.  What are the shops that you all recommend to have mag work done and what are the costs associated with repairing or overhauling these things.

Thanks all for any information.

Brett

[Shadrach]

Are we talking Bendix Mags? I have never understood why A&Ps are so loth to open them up. They are thing of beauty when it comes to function and a good wrench can R&R in under 3 hours. If there is oil getting to the mag, he should be more than capable of ordering and replacing the seal. I would inspect them before I ordered anything.

If he is hell bent on sending them out, Al Marcucci is the best in the business, but he's on the other side of the country.

http://www.powerprofiles.com/profile/00005148787683/SAVAGE+MAGNETO+SERVICE-HAYWARD-CA

Another option might be to try and find a local "Grey beard" A&P (over 50) as many of them will be able to strip and rebuild a bendix mag in their sleep. 

There's a guy at Royal Aircraft at KHGR named Tom that would possible do this for you. 

[jetdriven]

I think he is talking about the Bendix D2000 series dual mag.   I hear those are a nightmare to work on.

[bnicolette]

This is in fact a dual mag.

 

Sent from my iPad

[knute]

Per the mention on on of the posts above, Al Marcucci at Savage is indeed an artist with magnetos, but I think he's only doing experimentals / warbirds at this point.  (His shop in Hayward is like a museum- if you're in the area, it's worth the visit!)

Aircraft Magneto Service up in Washington is good, but they don't service dual magnetos anymore (there's a note on their website that it's due to difficulty in obtaining parts)

Soo...  I don't know if that info was particularly helpful, but maybe it is useful in the process of narrowing down your options.

[Shadrach]

My bad...I should have looked at the sig line.  I read the "SOS" in the subject line and immediately thought "Shower of Sparks" as in Bendix S20/200/1200. Duh...  The D2000/3000 were INMO the worst idea in the history of mag installs.... Hmmm...lets make it more complicated and give it a single point of failure...  

You may have trouble finding parts. TCM stopped supporting these early last year...

[Shadrach]

My bad...I should have looked at the sig line.  I read the "SOS" in the subject line and immediately thought "Shower of Sparks" as in Bendix S20/200/1200. Duh...  The D2000/3000 were INMO the worst idea in the history of mag installs.... Hmmm...lets make it more complicated and give it a single point of failure...  

You may have trouble finding parts. TCM stopped supporting these early last year...

[bnicolette]

Oh great; more good news. LOL

 

I have talked to my mechanic a couple times today and were still undecided on what to do. We have a few more folks to call and one at the advice of Mr Maxwell. I only wish I lived closer to that guy. Talk about a genuine individual that is eager to help Mooney folk!!!!!

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad

[jetdriven]

also ask LASAR.  if its just the seal and its dry inside, Id change the seal.  The 500 hour mag inspection is mostly an overhaul anyways, isnt it?  That thing can kill you though, so be careful and replace the hold-down with the improved style and replace the nut and washer every time it is loosened.

[KSMooniac]

Maxwell has a favorite mag guy in the Dallas area that does great work with the D2000/3000.  I unfortunately don't have the contact info with me at work, but Don (or Jan) would surely have it for you with a phone call.  I sent him my mag last fall for a 500 hr inspection, and he quickly discovered that the previous shop that "overhauled" it right before I bought the plane had sold it as a 3000 when in fact it was a 2000 IIRC!  Fortunately it didn't cause me any problems and the original shop offered to overhaul it correctly for free.  This was last August and there were enough parts in circulation to get it done without any anguish at that time.

Before sending the mag off, I would verify that the proper magneto clamps are in place, and the torque values are correct with the correct lock washers.  Torquing that puppy is a royal PITA.  There is an FAA service bulletin or letter or something about the new style clamps, proper gasket, and torque settings so I'd start there.

[John Pleisse]

My experience with the Bendix 2-3k Mags is be proactive and never wait for a couple of jolts at 8500 MSL. Also, Slick replacements are 500 hour throw-aways. I have had mechanics replace points and send out couplings, only to exchange or buy everything new a year or so later. These problems usually creep up as long starts. Have you seen the prices for new lately?

[bnicolette]

Conclusion has been drawn.

My mechanic in speaking with "the Don", decided that we are going to send it to Mr. Maxwell's guy in Lancaster, TX (Aaron Reid) to have it repaired.  Apparently the oil was internal (drive seal), not the flange.  In pricing some overhaul options for that mag the prices were all over the board with one as much as $3K.  With Mr. Reid we are hoping to be under $1K.  Quite a difference and coming with the blessing of Mr. Maxwell, well what more could one ask for?  It stinks that this has popped it's ugly head right now, but that's the way it goes.  I was really anxious to see how the new lord mounts felt and see if cleaning the injectors brount my GAMI lean test a little tighter, but now I have to wait about two weeks while we wait for the mag to come back. 

For those that will need this in the future here is the mag guru's contact info:

Aaron Reid

972-227-9581

Lancaster, TX

[Parker_Woodruff]

As Scott said, Don Maxwell has a good contact.  IIRC he's in Lancaster - just southeast of Dallas.

Don Maxwell - 903-643-9912

[Jeff_S]

Seems like the decision has been made on this one, but for future reference, Mike Busch in his Savvy Aviator webinar series did a whole hour on magnetos, and he also recommended a few shops for IRAN/overhaul work. Note that in contrast to his usual position on condition-based maintenance vs. time-based maintenance, the mags are the ONLY component that he still recommends be sent out for IRAN at the 500-hour interval due to their importance and the fact that problems can creep up quickly and have significant consequences.

[jetdriven]

there is a 500 hour AD on these mags.   The dual drive magneto ios one of those things I am surprised ever got certified.  One nut and a star washer is all that separates you from the ground.

 

EDIT:  Its two nuts and two star washers.  Still a single drive though.

[Robg]

The FAA hosted a Wings seminar last weekend at Air Salvage of Dallas entitled "Legal but Fatal".  They had three aicraft involved in fatal accidents displayed in the salvage yard, and a member of the FAA team and Lucky Louque went through the specifics of each accident, background, probable cause, etc while the participants where assembled around the remains of the airplane.  The first accident they discussed was a Commander 114 with the dual mag that crashed at night in Hot Springs, AR after the mag failed.  

Lucky spent no less than 15 minutes talking about the maintenance issues on these mags imploring everyone to maintain them religiously or "come with me and fill out an accident form in advance.  I'll fill in the date later".  The other point he made was the Aaron Reid with Select in Lancaster is one of the best in the country with this model of magneto.  Sounds like you are doing the right thing and sending them to the right place.

[John Pleisse]

It isn't just the OH shop. Critical is your A&P. Through my own personal experience and knowing others, it is essential they are installed correctly. Many shops accidentally shear off, strip or otherwise damage the mounting studs and harware attaching the mag casing to the accessory case. The mag itself is not as dangerous as made out to be. It is the mechanics who take it on and off. Ask any MSC IA..this is usually the culprit and the danger.

I have heard stories of hardware shaking loose, studs stripped out, etc. People flying hundreds of hours with only one connect point secure and more.

[bnicolette]

I definitely believe that is true.  I have seen some pretty horrific stuff in my years that an A&P has said is good to go.  The shop that I use, I have the same guy working on my plane at all times and I have a history with this guy as he was the maintenance director for the flight department I used to work at.  His shop speaks for itself when you see it.  We have some fly-by-night/gypsy mechanics running around our airport and they are with out a doubt cheaper than using a shop, but I have come to the realization over the years that you get what you pay for.

If anybody is looking for a shop near Pittsburgh, this guy is great and cares for a lot of Mooney's.

http://www.aeroinnovationsinc.com/

 

[bnicolette]

Does anybody know if there is still an AD out for the mag on an '82 J?  If there is what exactly is it for?  I recently sent my mag out for overhaul and the guy did a barage of work on it, but my mechanic nor the mag guru signed anything off as far as an AD.  The mag guru said in his paperwork that he checked for AD's but that's it?  I thought there used to be a 500 hr AD but the mag guy just referenced a Service Bulletin?  I just want to make sure because if there is an AD even if it wasn't due yet I would like to have it zeroed out.  The last inspection that was done on the mag was about 150-175 hours ago and it referenced impulse couplings.

[bnicolette]

Quote: jetdriven

there is a 500 hour AD on these mags.   The dual drive magneto ios one of those things I am surprised ever got certified.  One nut and a star washer is all that separates you from the ground.

[gofast]

Quote: Shadrach

Are we talking Bendix Mags? I have never understood why A&Ps are so loth to open them up. They are thing of beauty when it comes to function and a good wrench can R&R in under 3 hours. If there is oil getting to the mag, he should be more than capable of ordering and replacing the seal. I would inspect them before I ordered anything.

If he is hell bent on sending them out, Al Marcucci is the best in the business, but he's on the other side of the country.

http://www.powerprofiles.com/profile/00005148787683/SAVAGE+MAGNETO+SERVICE-HAYWARD-CA

Another option might be to try and find a local "Grey beard" A&P (over 50) as many of them will be able to strip and rebuild a bendix mag in their sleep. 

There's a guy at Royal Aircraft at KHGR named Tom that would possible do this for you. 

[rogerl]

Quote: Bnicolette

Well, I finally found out that there is no longer an AD out on these mags.  The AD was recinded for the 4 cylinder Lycomings but is still active for the six cylinders.  When I had my mag overhauled I was curious as to why my mechanic or the guy that did the mag didn't sign off an AD compliance record but now I know.  A lot of folks still think the AD is active so I thought I would let everybody know that is no longer required.  Although I would certainly make sure that mine was done again before the 500 hour mark. 

[bnicolette]

Quote: rogerl

[jetdriven]

The AD is 2005-12-06.  it applies now only to TCM 6 cylinder engines

 

[Bill_Pyles]

I have an IO360A3B6D like a lot of us.   So what is the "best" upgrade path if I want to get away from the dual mag?  Where would I get the new hardware and can any competant A&P install it or should I find a MSC to do it?  I live in Phoenix.