ADS-B REGS

[jbgood11X]

HELP HELP !!!!

Just bought a nice 1974 F model with older avionics and no ADS equipment.  I am going to have to upgrade some radio stuff and will have to add the ADS mod by end of next year.  I fly mainly VFR with occasional light IFR and would like to go the absolutely cheapest way to conform to the new regs.  I was really hoping that somewhere along the way the FAA would relent and allow the inexpensive remote units but it doesn't look like they are going to.  Would like any and all suggestions as to how everyone has solved this upcoming issue.  Thanks in advance for your replies.  I'm sure i'm not the only one facing this issue on a budget as to where to spend money on a Mooney.   By the way why does  Mooney seem as if it is just money stretched out.  spose ta b humor  LOL   thanks again for putting up with me.

JOHN B

[1964-M20E]

I'm not totally familiar with the specifics but in general if you fly anywhere mode C is required today you will need ADSB out and I believe above 10,000 feet.  I'm not sure if IFR makes any difference.  I already have ADSB out so I'm not that overly concerned with the specifics.

 

There are several add on options currently on the market and some coming to market for certified aircraft.  I'm sure others will chime in soon.  Search on the site there are many threads about ADSB.  Also talk with the shop you plan on having install the ADSB equipment they can probably give you some suggestions.  I have been hearing that some shops are getting busy in anticipation of 2020.

[Greg Ellis]

The sky beacon from uavionix.com maybe the least expensive way to go.  About $1900 and gives you the required GPS position source, etc...etc...  No need to get into the panel.  It replaces one of your nav lights.  For around $5500 you can get a WAAS equipped Transponder like a Garmin GTX 335 or 345 that will give you what you need but would require a pretty substantial  install charge with getting into your panel.  There are others out there that fall somewhere in between.

And it is not required for IFR flight.  I have attached a pretty good image of when ADS B out will be required.  It should help.

Of course, while not the cheapest way, I dove on head first and just re-did my whole panel. Pre and post Pics attached.

 

 

 

[jbgood11X]

nice panel  and thnx for the info.  just starting to gather ideas  hope it will help others also by getting the thread started

[Clparker23]

I am also curious to this situation, I personally can stay out of class c but would like to fly above 10,000, so I’m looking at this ads b “investment”. I currently have kx170’s, old audio panel and transponder.

I have bought a EI CGR 30c cluster gauge replacement and had a custom panel made but have not installed either, I have a quote of $3500 to install both.

I have a $20k budget and want to get the best for my buck.

I have been looking at when installing CGR and panel:
Garmin GMA 345
Stratus ESG
Garmin gnc 255a nav/com/gs

Quoted $19.5k for additional equipment purchase and install of all. Does anyone have any other thoughts or suggestions? I have a EI ubg 16 installed but have been very skeptical of my old gauges, so my driver has been reliable engine monitoring and while at it, reliable simple communications.

Sorry to hijack but thought maybe similar situation.




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[Clparker23]

Greg,
What was the turn key cost on the panel upgrade?



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[MyNameIsNobody]

Go to avionics header in Mooneyspace.  There are lots of threads on ADSB solutions there.  Been done movie.  We needed a new Transponder so did 335 Garmin.  With rebate our hardware and install was <4.5AMU’s.  The world is likely going to end before 2020 mandate based on Mainsteam media.  I would hold off...

Edited August 30, 2018 by MyNameIsNobody

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, jbgood11X said:

HELP HELP !!!!

Just bought a nice 1974 F model with older avionics and no ADS equipment.  I am going to have to upgrade some radio stuff and will have to add the ADS mod by end of next year.  I fly mainly VFR with occasional light IFR and would like to go the absolutely cheapest way to conform to the new regs.  I was really hoping that somewhere along the way the FAA would relent and allow the inexpensive remote units but it doesn't look like they are going to.  Would like any and all suggestions as to how everyone has solved this upcoming issue.  Thanks in advance for your replies.  I'm sure i'm not the only one facing this issue on a budget as to where to spend money on a Mooney.   By the way why does  Mooney seem as if it is just money stretched out.  spose ta b humor  LOL   thanks again for putting up with me.

JOHN B

There are a few solutions available and like others have said, I suspect the landscape will change a bit over the next year. The SkyBeacon was what a number were holding out for and now that Garmin is suing them for patent infringement, I would hold off until that is resolved. Garmin has the GDL-82, FreeFlight has stuff, L-3 and if you search on the internet for ADS-B, you will see who is out there offering stuff.

Keep in mind the only requirement is the "out" portion. I suspect a lot of guys may be updating their GTX-330 ES for the GTX-345 and those if available would meet the mandate. I just sold a GTX-327 to another MooneySpace member who plans on adding a GDL-82 to meet the mandate.

One precautionary note, these avionics are beginning to get really busy. If the SkyBeacon isn't available, you will most likely be forced to go through an avionics shop. Some of them are already booking into next Spring. Don't wait too long...

[steingar]

How could you put one of those Skybeacon things on a Mooney?  They cause drag, and I bet lots of it.  Didn't buy a Mooney to have it slowed down by my ADSB widget.   My solution, which has really come in handy, cost about 5 AMU's all in.  If you've already got a WAAS source you might do better.  Best do it soon if you want to fly in or above controlled airspace after 2020.

[Greg Ellis]

35 minutes ago, Clparker23 said:

Greg,
What was the turn key cost on the panel upgrade?



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I would have to pull the receipts but is was around 30-35K.  Most of that was labor.  The labor was high because all wiring was redone.  Behind the panel was an absolute disaster with 55 years of wiring left behind when things were modified or upgraded through the years.  There were live wires running nowhere, etc...etc...  the shop I went with is quite expensive.  I could have gotten it done cheaper elsewhere but I know their work and I know it would be done right.  I asked multiple shops about this upgrade.  One never got back to me.  Another got back to me and said he would get me a quote. 3 weeks later I called hi and he acted like he knew nothing about it.  I then asked again and he told me to buy the avionics and he would install them.  Well. I know nothing about what would be needed so I said no to him.  I told a third shop what I wanted and his quote was for completely different products (for instance, I wanted a Garmin audio panel and he quoted me a PS Engineering one, etc...). So I ended up with the shop I did.  They were at my airport so I also paid for convenience.  The attached pic is of useless wiring pulled from behind my panel.

[Greg Ellis]

Free flight systems offers their Rangr series of ADS B as well.  They work with old transponders do that is another option.

[Mooneymite]

18 minutes ago, steingar said:

How could you put one of those Skybeacon things on a Mooney?  They cause drag, and I bet lots of it.  Didn't buy a Mooney to have it slowed down by my ADSB widget. 

The uAvionix Tail Beacon will be no draggier than your present tail light.

Tail Beacon's certified version is due out "momentarily", while the wingtip version is already certified.

Compared to other ADS-B out solutions, it is cheap.  Installation is nearly free.  Because it has a self contained WAAS GPS, you don't have to have a panel GPS at all...just a mode C transponder.

The Garmin law suite is an unknown.  However once installed, I doubt the uAvionix units will be re-called.  There may be some advantage to buying now before a "Garmin licensing fee" drives up the price.

So far, I am very happy with the Tail Beacon I installed on my experimental.  I'm still unsure of what I'll do on my Mooney.

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, Greg Ellis said:

I hate that diagram, it's confusing.  It's the DASHED areas that require ADS-B Out, not the BLUE areas.

[Raptor05121]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

How could you put one of those Skybeacon things on a Mooney?  They cause drag, and I bet lots of it.  Didn't buy a Mooney to have it slowed down by my ADSB widget.   My solution, which has really come in handy, cost about 5 AMU's all in.  If you've already got a WAAS source you might do better.  Best do it soon if you want to fly in or above controlled airspace after 2020.

I don't see how a blade 1cm thick and maybe 2 inches long is "lots of" drag. It's ~$1800 and mounts with 2 wires and a screw. If it did cause drag, I'm sure its on the order of maybe a tenth of a mph. Polishing your plane would probably make up for the difference.

 

 

And for all things considered, I talked to iLevel on their "BOM" (see below) and the salesman at SnF says they did a 3-way speed test in a Bonanza at 175kts with no loss in speed. I'll take it with a grain of salt, but supposedly our steps are "worth 5 knots" when I raise and lower mine in cruise all the time and my ASI nor GS moves a hair.

[Greg Ellis]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

I hate that diagram, it's confusing.  It's the DASHED areas that require ADS-B Out, not the BLUE areas.

Sorry about that.  It seems pretty straight forward to me since it is labeled on the chart where either UAT or 1090ES is needed.

[Greg Ellis]

4 minutes ago, Raptor05121 said:

I don't see how a blade 1cm thick and maybe 2 inches long is "lots of" drag. It's ~$1800 and mounts with 2 wires and a screw. If it did cause drag, I'm sure its on the order of maybe a tenth of a mph. Polishing your plane would probably make up for the difference.

 

 

And for all things considered, I talked to iLevel on their "BOM" (see below) and the salesman at SnF says they did a 3-way speed test in a Bonanza at 175kts with no loss in speed. I'll take it with a grain of salt, but supposedly our steps are "worth 5 knots" when I raise and lower mine in cruise all the time and my ASI nor GS moves a hair.

I flew with my step down on my C model and it caused a noticeable 5 mph reduction in cruise speed on the airspeed indicator and similar loss in ground speed.

[Yetti]

It's looking like this is my route.  Just boxes not wiring or install.

Dynon Skyview

STC - $2500

ADSB out - $2000 Includes new transponder - Mine was dying a slow death.

$600 - GPS Position source

$4000 - Remote head.

***** ADSB Mandate complied with *******  and should have moving map..  for about the price of a Large screen Garmin GPS

Add $400 -  glass primary panel

Add $600 - Engine Monitor

Add $2000 -  Auto Pilot.

 

Then we start doing redundancy and other fun stuff.

 

 

 

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, Greg Ellis said:

Sorry about that.  It seems pretty straight forward to me since it is labeled on the chart where either UAT or 1090ES is needed.

Just a pet peeve of mine.  The graphic artist just needs a good smack in the back of the head for incorporating the blue shading, it only serves as a distraction to the goal of the diagram.

[0TreeLemur]

7 hours ago, Greg Ellis said:

Of course, while not the cheapest way, I dove on head first and just re-did my whole panel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Me too.

[MyNameIsNobody]

A&P did my transponder ADSB update.  NOT a Certified Avionics shop.  Garmin has some approval that allows selling and install by a non-Garmin certified installer...

[bonal]

9 hours ago, Marauder said:

There are a few solutions available and like others have said, I suspect the landscape will change a bit over the next year. The SkyBeacon was what a number were holding out for and now that Garmin is suing them for patent infringement, I would hold off until that is resolved. Garmin has the GDL-82, FreeFlight has stuff, L-3 and if you search on the internet for ADS-B, you will see who is out there offering stuff.

Keep in mind the only requirement is the "out" portion. I suspect a lot of guys may be updating their GTX-330 ES for the GTX-345 and those if available would meet the mandate. I just sold a GTX-327 to another MooneySpace member who plans on adding a GDL-82 to meet the mandate.

One precautionary note, these avionics are beginning to get really busy. If the SkyBeacon isn't available, you will most likely be forced to go through an avionics shop. Some of them are already booking into next Spring. Don't wait too long...

Today's flight had to be by car since we have no transponder. A nice drive to Yontville in Napa Valley for the day. When we got home there was a box on the porch. Will be taking it in to LASAR tomorrow to assist in the install of the GTX327 hen we can get back to flying. After I will still be able to choose the ADSB next year going with the GDL82 or the sky beacon if the law suit is resolved. They cost about the same but labor is going to be less for the sky beacon.

Thanks Chris

[steingar]

The Skybeakon boom widget powers itself with a propellor sitting in the windstream. That’s why no wires. Propellor=drag. Guys with slow airplanes like tail draggers and Skyhawks should be all over this. I didn’t buy a Mooney to have it slowed down by some damn widget.

All this said, by the time the courts are done you may be buying your widget from Garmin. Good luck with that.

[bonal]

The Bom looks butt ugly and would not consider it as well as the spinning fan to generate the power. That seems like something that would wear out real quick. As for the Skybeacon it gets its power from the nav light power and looks like would not cause much if any added drag