Garwin cluster

[bonal]

Going to remove the gauges this weekend and sending to Kelley Instruments for service any gotcha's (tips) I should know about the removal/installation process would be appreciated. Spoke to Nick at Kelleys and servicing sounds pretty straight forward.

[RangerJim]

Keep us posted please.  I'd like to learn more about this myself.

[bonal]

Not a whole lot of interest here but for Ranger I thought I would update. Took about 45 minutes to remove lucky that mine had the canon plug not individual wires (surprise) sent off to Kelley for service took about 2 weeks for turn around. Nick said there was a lot of the old paint flaked off and the two temp gauges were really cruddy so took a good bit of time to repair. All other gauges were serviced as well and calibrated. The finished product looks great and install later today. Kelley instruments did a fantastic job. Cost was .4AMU's test flight to follow.

 

[Browncbr1]

Did they put a new faceplate on there?   The lettering on yours looks really good.  

[bonal]

They repainted it turned out really nice. The solid overcast is preventing a test flight but they all seemed good to go when I turned on the master. This shot is before its kind of hard to see but the paint flakes were what was gumming up the works.

[RangerJim]

Thanks for the followup bonal.  Your project came out looking as good as new and for a very reasonable price. I will go this route next winter as an interim step to a modern engine monitor.

[par]

Deleted.

Edited March 21, 2016 by par

[MHemperly]

That looks great! Mine has individual clear plastic on each gauge. Would this restore mine like yours with the single plastic face? 

Mike

[bonal]

Thanks for the props Mike I would call Kelley Instruments and talk to Nick he is very knowledgeable and based on my conversations during the time he had them very thorough with his service and attention to detail. They have a website you can look up sorry I'm too much of a Luddite to attach a link.

[1524J]

3 hours ago, bonal said:

Thanks for the props Mike I would call Kelley Instruments and talk to Nick he is very knowledgeable and based on my conversations during the time he had them very thorough with his service and attention to detail. They have a website you can look up sorry I'm too much of a Luddite to attach a link.

Luddite......Word of the day. I had to look it up. I refer to myself as technologically disadvantaged.  Luddite would be better for ATC.  

Nice looking gauges and seems like a quick turn around.

[MHemperly]

2 hours ago, bonal said:

Thanks for the props Mike I would call Kelley Instruments and talk to Nick he is very knowledgeable and based on my conversations during the time he had them very thorough with his service and attention to detail. They have a website you can look up sorry I'm too much of a Luddite to attach a link.

Of course man! I'll have to check it out! 

Mike

[bonal]

PIREP...test flight today and cylinder temp was a bit higher than before right at 400 in climb on a 70 degree day. Once in cruise it dropped to about 360 to 370. But the oil temp came off the peg and climbed to red line after just a few minutes taxiing. All others were good. So my question to the group is, can there be a problem with the sending unit and where is it located on the engine. I'm going to have my oil changed next week so would like to pursue this issue at that time.  Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, bonal said:

PIREP...test flight today and cylinder temp was a bit higher than before right at 400 in climb on a 70 degree day. Once in cruise it dropped to about 360 to 370. But the oil temp came off the peg and climbed to red line after just a few minutes taxiing. All others were good. So my question to the group is, can there be a problem with the sending unit and where is it located on the engine. I'm going to have my oil changed next week so would like to pursue this issue at that time.  Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

It doesn't make sense that the oil temp would go to red line on taxi.  The oil temperature probe is located on the top of the filter assembly between the magnetos.

Clarence

[carusoam]

Additional information for consideration...  (Things a PP might check)

1) Oil Temp sensor is not usually the typical TC.  It is a thermistor.  A temperature dependent resistor.

2) Following Clarence's locating details, see if a broken wire is causing an issue...?  (Losing a power wire, or gaining a ground)

3) I don't remember if low resistance is high temp indication or the other way around.

4) If oil is flowing (oil pressure is normal) the oil usually can't physically get that hot during the taxi.  Even with the oil cooler blocked.  Normal CHTs require good oil flow.  Check your CHT data for anomalies...

5) if the oil pan is full of oil, all 6qts would be getting heated.  This would take a lot of time.  I have to taxi a long way just to show warmth.

6) if the oil was really getting that hot it would have smoke coming out the oil filler if you were to open it.

7) If a small amount of oil were really getting hot enough to redline the OilT bulb you will most likely get the aroma of oil burning at the oil filler.

8) Check

  - That the engine is full of oil.

  - There are no burnt aromas of oil or smoke coming out the oil fill when open.

  - Check the color of the oil.  Black and stinking is bad...

9) Check the output of the Thermistor using a volt meter is possible.

10) Check the resistance of the thermistor can be done when disconnected.

11) Since redline is really hot, use caution when touching or opening anything...

12) If the sensor really is at red line temperature, you will probably be able to feel the heat coming off the engine.

13) getting this far and still everything seems and looks normal,. Expect the thermistor to be not grounding properly or not getting power properly or the thermistor is broken internally.

14) check the price of the device.  It may be cheaper to swap out the thermistor than it is to test it to see if it's broken...

15) Also consider how the oil temp controlled valve works for sending /bypassing oil to the oil cooler.  If the oil is hot it should be routing to that radiator.

How does that logic sound?  It is the logic of a PP.  I am not a Mechanic.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[bonal]

Oil pressure was normal on the high side of 75 CHT was no more than 400 even after a long climb. Nothing smoking out of filler tube and motor was not exhibiting any signs of excessive heat. Oil level is a 5 quarts a bit low but not enough to cause excessive heat build up and as posted above temps went to red line even during taxi. Any chance there could be an issue at the cannon plug since this was the only thing that was handled during the removal and reinstall. I will be calling Kelley Instruments on Monday to discuss.

[carusoam]

Open, Clean and re-connect the plug... We love Aviation electronics...

Best regards,

-a-

[MyNameIsNobody]

Why do so many continue to live in the analog world?  There are many digital...READ...BETTER...solutions to the "'ol six pack".  The expense is NOT that significant.  Why throw good money after tech that served but is no longer in the ball park as on the curve much less ahead of the curve?  This is NOT CB as money toward analog is just money toward a needle that is NOT exact.

Edited March 27, 2016 by MyNameIsNobody

[cctsurf]

22 minutes ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

Why throw good money after tech that served but is no longer in the ball park as on the curve much less ahead of the curve? 

Simple economics.  I have the aging 6-pack of engine instruments...  The cheapest certified alternative is ~$3800 plus installation...  This cost $400.  I want the $3800 solution, but $400 will tide me over 'till I can get there.

(edited to add the following:) Besides which, the plane has flown how many hours with these gauges...and now they're calibrated...possibly better than new.  They are legal, we have to jump through hoops to get better.  I have to wonder, what further enjoyment does digital gauges add to our flying over the old analog ones.

Edited March 27, 2016 by cctsurf
further thoughts

[Yetti]

oH This could turn into a when men were men and knew what those green spaces between the lines meant really fast.

Adding digital complexity seems to generate a lot of questions on the forum

Seems like lots of $8.00 thermocouplers fail then you have to buy them for $30.00 and pay the mechanic $100.00 to replace them.

There are lots of wiring harnesses to junk up an otherwise clean but small engine compartment

Sometimes the install gives you more problems to what may only need a simple solution

Three year payback of $3AMU with 100 flight hours a year add 3 gallons of AV gas lost per flight hour

[Guest]

9 hours ago, carusoam said:

Open, Clean and re-connect the plug... We love Aviation electronics...

Best regards,

-a-

More likely the Cannon plug or wiring at the oil temperature bulb in the engine compartment, they are all 50 years old.

Clarence

[MyNameIsNobody]

11 hours ago, cctsurf said:

Simple economics.  I have the aging 6-pack of engine instruments...  The cheapest certified alternative is ~$3800 plus installation...  This cost $400.  I want the $3800 solution, but $400 will tide me over 'till I can get there.

(edited to add the following:) Besides which, the plane has flown how many hours with these gauges...and now they're calibrated...possibly better than new.  They are legal, we have to jump through hoops to get better.  I have to wonder, what further enjoyment does digital gauges add to our flying over the old analog ones.

We will go with your answer as tube and needle guys like it.  My son likes my old albums and turn table.  I like Pandora.

It is NOT about enjoyment.  It is about upgrading to a digital read-out that provides a superior (accuracy) and upgraded aesthetic appearance that is functional better.  

PS-The discharge swing on the analog gauge and lack of a discharge light cost me power OUT with no warning.  Never again.  

[par]

Just get an EDM-830 installed for little over half of that $3800 and keep your old gauges without OH them. I thought about OH'ing the cluster but I could not justify $400 to do so and still have next to no info on what 3 of your cylinders are doing. Along with this, I have fuel flow as an added benefit. Total cost to buy and install the EDM-830 was $2600 though an independent IA.

Edited March 27, 2016 by par

[Marauder]

Just get an EDM-830 installed for little over half of that $3800 and keep your old gauges without OH them. I thought about OH'ing the cluster but I could not justify $400 to do so and still have next to no info on what 3 of your cylinders are doing. Along with this, I have fuel flow as an added benefit. Total cost to buy and install the EDM-830 was $2600 though an independent IA.

I fly with a guy who has the Garwin gauges and it is disconcerting to see the gauges go from worky to no worky when I am looking at them and we are flying through clouds.

My factory gauges were still working fine when I installed the 830 as a "backup" to them. Later I removed them for a primary JPI 900. Side benefit is that I can download and look at my engine performance on a regular basis.

[bonal]

Its funny this thread was mostly ignored until there was a problem I thank all for the suggestions and will check cannon plug today as far as the digital anolog debate I just want to get my pressure working again as this is what my budget allows. It's a double edged sword the more data you have the more you scratch your head trying to analyze it. This engine has flown over 6000 hrs  as equipped and oil temp is a pretty straight forward bit of information. Believe me when I say when things need repair I have spent whatever it takes to fly safe.

[par]

49 minutes ago, bonal said:

Its funny this thread was mostly ignored until there was a problem I thank all for the suggestions and will check cannon plug today as far as the digital anolog debate I just want to get my pressure working again as this is what my budget allows. It's a double edged sword the more data you have the more you scratch your head trying to analyze it. This engine has flown over 6000 hrs  as equipped and oil temp is a pretty straight forward bit of information. Believe me when I say when things need repair I have spent whatever it takes to fly safe.

Absolutely with you regarding the cost issue. I just wanted to mention the EDM specifically to the guy looking at spending $3800 bucks for the same reason.