Instrument Rating in M20K with non-Mooney CFII

[flyboy0681]

I'm hoping to sign the papers on my M20J later this week.

Sometime in the next few months I'll be starting my IR training. I have a CFII that I have been using for the past few years (as a renter) that I really like and get along with well, but he doesn't have any Mooney experience.

My question is, just how critical is it to use an instructor that doesn't have Mooney time?

Please, honest based answers only.

[N601RX]

My insurance company required that they have 20 hrs in make and model (Mooney Time).

[74657]

Im in the same boat.  My instructor has "a little" Mooney time but "a bunch" of time in Citations, 421's, Barons, T-6 Texans and thousands of hours in "a bunch of other stuff."  No disrepect to any who disagree with me but in my honest opinion, if you are comfortable flying in YOUR plane with your instructor then go for it.  I am comfortable flying with my instructor, despite his lack of Mooney time.  Now if your buddy only flies Skyhawks, dont walk away....run.   

[Theo]

IMHO .... for the IR I wouldn't worry too much about it. It's mostly procedures that apply to all aircraft. Just don't let him get too close to the ragged edge on the unusual attitude recovery and risk discovering why Mooneys aren't supposed to be spun. Other than that, the instrument training should be the same as on any complex single. Just faster ....

[flyboy0681]

Excellent point Theo. Excellent point.

[flight2000]

Quote: N601RX

My insurance company required that they have 20 hrs in make and model (Mooney Time).

[roundout]

I would at least have a CFI with Mooney time take you up and do 10 landings and some emergency work. After that you don't need a specialist. I know of somebody you can call in So Fla, if you like. PM me. 

[davidfreedman]

I did half of my training with non-Mooney CFII and half with.  I agree that it's not necessary for the purposes of an IR but when you spend that kind of time with an instructor, you can pick up a lot of good info if they know Mooneys...particularly if you are a first time Mooney owner.  I would invest a week on researching local Mooney-specific instructors.

[tony]

My insurance company required my CFII to have 25 hours too.  I went over to see the agent and told them that the instructor I really want to use graduated from the academy, went to test pilot school, flies C5, C130s, C17, F16, etc. Given all that experience, I really think he’s qualified to fly my Mooney.  The agent smiled and said then all we have to do is write him into your policy as a named pilot which I did and there was no additional cost because all of the risk is me since I only have a couple of hundred hours compared to his thousands. So if you find that perfect instructor for your IFR rating, try that

[Hank]

I had a Mooney-familiar CFII do my initial transition and required dual hours when I bought into my C-model. 300 hours later, I got serious about the IR, and he was not available, so I grabbed a former airline pilot with no Mooney time. Three familiarization flights with someone else, and we began training. The only real differences are cruise speed and the power settings for the approach.

There's a long thread on the Mooney Tech site about power settings for IFR approaches right now, but it boils down to pull your power back to slow from cruise, and manage your descent in the normal manner:  pitch for speed, power for altitude on the approach.

Your exact settings will vary depending upon which model you fly, how high the initial approach is, and your choice of props. I manage 90 knots [105 mph indicated] clean with about 16" / 2300, and add ~2" when the flaps go down. Once I start the actual descent towards the airport, I don't really look at those numbers any more. Spend some time with a safety pilot and figure out your settings before going out with your instructor for the following:

Level flight, normal cruise

Level flight, slow cruise [just above flap speed]

Level flight, approach flaps at approach speed [for me, 90 knots; for others, 120 knots]

500 fpm descent, approach flaps at approach speed

500 fpm descent, approach flaps and gear at approach speed

That should take you to MDA where you can see the runway, then make your normal landing from that point. The numbers you record while practicing will get you in the neighborhood of the speed you want, as winds, altitude and loading for each approach will have an effect. Move the levers to those settings, let the airplane settle down, and make fine adjustments for the speed/descent rate that you want.

[Mooney13]

I finished my IFR rating in July. My instructor did not have Mooney time, I had 150 hours in my Mooney prior to starting training. Could not hurt to have a Mooney familiar CFII, but in my opinion, it's more important to just have a good CFII.

[M016576]

If I was looking for an instructor to get teach me instrument flying- I'd rather have an instructor that is solid in his instrument procedures, and knows the equipment I intend to use backwards and forwards (big difference between shooting a backcourse localizer vs. NDB vs. a WAAS GPS approach... even between equipment), but has no mooney experience rather than an "average" CFII with a bit of mooney time.  Obviously, the ideal situation would be a CFII that is an expert on both... but I think you'll probably find more expert CFII's that don't have mooney time, than the other way around.  Just a hunch on that, though....

Ultimatley- find someone you feel comfortable learning IFR with... don't let mooney experience keep you from an awesome CFII.  (just my opinion).

-Job

[Parker_Woodruff]

Your checkout needs to be with a Mooney CFI who actually knows Mooneys.  After that, get someone who knows what they're doing IFR wise.

[Mac201]

It's my opinion that a good CFII that you relate to well is best, but it is helpful to have an experienced Mooney instructor for initial checkout.  Last year I used a Mooney guy for my insurance required 10 hours, then used my long time instructor for instrument proficiency.  It worked well for me.  As posted before, focus on your power settings initially.

[Immelman]

Quote: flyboy0681

I'm hoping to sign the papers on my M20J later this week.

Sometime in the next few months I'll be starting my IR training. I have a CFII that I have been using for the past few years (as a renter) that I really like and get along with well, but he doesn't have any Mooney experience.

My question is, just how critical is it to use an instructor that doesn't have Mooney time?

Please, honest based answers only.

[flyboy0681]

Thanks for all of the replies here, I got the answers I needed and appreciate everyone's candor. 

I close on the plane this Saturday and have scheduled time with a Mooney instructor later that day.

As for the instrument training, it appears that using an instructor with a lot of  Mooney time is not all that important.

I'll be following up with pictures and a new avatar in a few days.

[Hank]

Congratulations! Spend a few months just having fun and enjoying your new plane. Take the time to get comfortable, learn how she handles, and how to slow her down. Once you feel good and know the plane's abilities and your own, THEN grab a safety pilot and start experimenting with your power settings.

Don't try to start your IFR training until after you learn how to fly your new Mooney. It's a fun ride!

[Flyboy10W]

I can tell you as a 6,000 hour, 2X masrter CFI who has taught in and owned 5 Mooneys- that as far as the instrument rating is concerned, any competent instructor should be able to terach you how to fly instruments in that plane. The insurnace company may have other requiments, but the actual instrument work should pose no special problems. The Mooney is one of the finest, most stable, easy to fly instrument platforms ever built. If you have any problems getting what you need, contact me. 

MLeighton

[jlunseth]

I agree that the Mooney is a fine, stable instrument platform.  But it depends on alot of things if it is the right plane for you to learn in.  The Mooney is faster than most planes, it does not like to fly at 90 KIAS as much as, say, a Warrior or Slohawk.  It will wallow on you a little bit if there is turbulence, and there is always turbulence at approach altitudes.  When I took instrument my instructor delighted in shooting closely sequenced practice approaches, i.e. approaches at airports ten miles apart, or multiple approaches at the same airport.  This was a good exercise, because in real life you don't always have alot of time to set up.  ATC gets busy and they dump a hold or an approach on you without much time.  So the exercise teaches you to sequence through your procedures without wasting time.  The Mooney was not great for that, because you got there so darned fast.  And it takes more focus to fly it at low altitudes at 90.  So if you need to slow down to give yourself time to set up for an approach, you are not buying yourself much.  It becomes extremely easy to do this if you can offload course and altitude to your AP, but in instrument practice, if your instructor is good, he/she will want you to hand fly the airplane.

When it comes to real life approaches though, meaning what you fly at the end of a long trip in order to get to the ground, the Mooney is absolutely great.  Over time, you learn to fly approaches faster in a Mooney, and that helps with traffic sequencing.  I now fly approaches up to the FAF at 110-120 and sometimes faster if ATC needs it.  Things happen much faster at those speeds though, so you have to know your procedures.  When you are still learning, you do not, by definition, know the procedures like the back of your hand.

I have the 231.  The things are so darned fast that in a descent ATC sometimes mistakes you for a jet.  If you have a 50+ knot tailwind helping you along, you will see groundspeeds in the 230-250 knot range.  It generally takes 75-100 nm to get down from alititude at a friendly 500 fpm descent rate under those circumstances.  I have had ATC instruct me to slow down in descents for traffic, and give me off course vectors to allow more room to lose altitude.  They aren't always accustomed to piston singles that get there as fast as the Mooney does.

So yes, it is a great instrument platform.  But be careful what you wish for.  It is fast.