M20M Bravo Engine: Re-Man or New? Good FL Shop?

[WorldWiseTrade]

It's getting to be that time, 1900TT on my 94 Bravo.

Any comments and suggestions on getting engine remanufactured vs purchasing a new Lycoming TIO-540-AF1B.

Also any suggestions for a great shop in FL with Mooney experience would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

[philiplane]

If it's running well, and oil analysis doesn't show abnormal wear, why euthanize a perfectly good engine? It probably will not explode right at 2000 hours ;)

Magnetos should be inspected if they have more than 500 hours on them, and vacuum pumps should be replaced at 1000 hours since they aren't known to last much longer than that. Turbo bearings require a play check and a borescope inspection of the turbine wheel every 500 hours as well. But so long as your engine is healthy, monitor it with regular cylinder inspections and oil analysis, and it will tell you when it needs overhaul. 

Don't go to Premier at FXE...

[WorldWiseTrade]

Thanks, thought of that but may want to sell, and seems necessary to have low time engine.

I replaced the mags, alternators, and turbo last annual, so all the components are a-ok. Oil analysis is also good, not making metal. Personally I would keep flying it until oil burn, oil analysis, compressions, etc. indicated it was really time.  

Agree on shops, I never go to those "high overhead" shops with the IA sitting in an office, I find it's always better with a "labor of love" place, hands on mechanic that does a great job and is not in the business of up-selling. Also like to do owner assist annuals, good to get into the nuts and bolts of it, nice to know what's under the hood.

Thanks :-) 

[LANCECASPER]

I've never used this shop but heard good things about them.      http://www.jbaircraftengines.com/

[Tony Armour]

Gann Aviation in NW Georgia 9A5 will be building mine when the time comes. He has a great reputation, does all of Bill Elliot's airplane stuff etc. I'm at 1925 on my 93 TLS with good oil analysis and low oil consumption. Carlus Gann did my J engine some 15 years ago. I like the idea of one man doing my motor. He has a (my) mechanic on site or Joey Cole/Mooney Service Center at KDNN (my airport) is the next airport just over the ridge. Thursday I was in Coles shop and a brand new $60,000 Bravo engine had just arrived. Small pallet of stuff for that much $$$ :-o they said the crank AD had come up time wise or something ? I think Joey also uses Gann on some builds.

I also like the idea of a privately built engine so that I can go back with nickel on the cylinder walls like I did on my top when purchased at around 1250 hours. Carlus had those done and that same IA and myself installed them. I think carlus has been pretty busy with a lot of engines lately.

[Piloto]

I have used Airmark http://www.airmarkoverhaul.com/ for three engines with very good results. All of them held above 75/80 up to TBO. Get new cylinder kits instead of overhauled cylinders. 

José 

[philiplane]

If you want to sell and add the most value a factory rebuilt or new engine is the best route. Plus you get product improvements you don't get aftermarket, such as the roller tappets. And a new crank and crankcase. Don't forget that 540's can develop case cracks in front of #2 and on top of #6. I just sent an engine back to a well known shop, because it had a little oil seepage 50 hours after overhaul, which turned into a nice crack above #6 by 150 hours (less than a year.) This was a first run overhaul of a 1900 hour engine, just for comparison. Fortunately they are going to warrant the case, but the owner would have been better off spending $5k more for a factory rebuilt. The plane will be down again for several weeks while this gets repaired. 

[KSMooniac]

My opinion... if is running great then I would keep flying subject to the items Philip mentioned above.  If you're selling soon, you won't recover your "investment" in an overhaul/rebuilt engine.  It might help you sell quicker than with a runout, but you'll net far less money.  Some buyers would prefer a good running high-time engine (priced accordingly) so they can fly some bonus time out of it and overhaul/replace to their own specs vs. rolling the dice with an unknown overhaul done by the prior owner.  Then there is the infant mortality concern as well.  Others want a newer engine, but they'll still beat you up on price and you certainly won't get the current value of the plane + overhaul/exchange cost in your sale price.

[fantom]

On 11/7/2015, 10:46:38, LANCECASPER said:

I've never used this shop but heard good things about them.      http://www.jbaircraftengines.com/

Before using them, I suggest doing a search on this forum.

A factory reman AFTER your good running engine tells you it's time, and it will when it's time. Just listen.

[rocketman]

I went through this dilemma this summer. My Bravo has 2100 hours on it and was running perfectly. Changed oil every 25 hours. Filters cut - no metal. Maybe a little extra oil consumption but not alarming. But something was bothering me. Since I am part 91 (non commercial) my options of extending it were mine. But really were they? I fly my wife and passengers frequently. Do I tell them that I am exceeding the factory's recommended replacement time? Do I tell them that I have to do added things to the engine to be sure its really OK to fly? Is this really fair to them. I kept asking these questions over and over. Finally during Oshkosh, I went to the Lycoming tent and talked to Dennis Coulborn from Williamsport who was very helpful. He told me that he can give me a rebuilt factory engine with new log book for the price of an overhaul if the engine was first run, and has never been overhauled before. So the next week I sealed the deal and bought the rebuilt engine from Air Power in Texas. Best prices, and highly recommended. To make a long story short, I am receiving my engine in freight tomorrow at Panama City Beach airport where Mitchell Hall from Sunset Aviation will be swapping the engines. Sent the props for resealing but not overhauling since I don't want the prop shop to file a lot of metal from the blades, All new oil lines, refurb and spruce up the engine compartment. All new accessories are standard with the Factory rebuilt engines including turbo, controllers, etc. So far happy with my decision.

[kmyfm20s]

I understand your point but after I had engine overhauled I wouldn't fly with my kids for the first 150 hours and even then it was in the back of my head that most castrophic engine failure happen with in the first 250 hours. I'm very involved with my engine health which makes a huge difference. I always review engine monitor data. I usually do all my oil changes myself but always cut filters, oil analysis, compression test and bore scope at each oil change and if all vitals are good I'm going longer than TBO. How much longer? Probably until the very first sign of a tend change. I will fly with greater ease after TBO with my kids than the first 250 hours on a new engine.

[rocketman]

That's a good argument and one that I have always heard before. Catastrophic engine failures do occur but rarely. 250 hours of break-in  time probably in excess of whats needed. Maybe 50 or so. I do understand your point however. Don't you hate it when TBO comes knocking.

 

[tls pilot]

On November 7, 2015 at 2:32:26 PM, WorldWiseTrade said:

It's getting to be that time, 1900TT on my 94 Bravo.

Any comments and suggestions on getting engine remanufactured vs purchasing a new Lycoming TIO-540-AF1B.

Also any suggestions for a great shop in FL with Mooney experience would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

recently had one done

quality work from Columbia Aircraft in Bloomsburg PA. very close to Lycoming in Williamsport

always get new lycoming cylinder kits as Jose mentions

they have been in business for over 75 yrs

talk to Doug  tel:570.784.3070

columbiaaircraftservices.com

 

The shop Jose mentions will NOT do the TIO 540af1B unless things changed in the last year...

[FlyWalt]

Has anyone used Daytona Aircraft for engine rebuilding? They are an MSC, an FAR 145 Repair Station, and highly regarded. I just never knew they had an engine shop until I brought my 231 to them for an annual.

[jetdriven]

in Florida, use Zephyr.  They are a top rated engine shop.

[ArtVandelay]

Has anyone used Daytona Aircraft for engine rebuilding? They are an MSC, an FAR 145 Repair Station, and highly regarded. I just never knew they had an engine shop until I brought my 231 to them for an annual.

There is a thread about a 231 they are refurbishing, started by jclemmons you might want to check out.

[tls pilot]

If you want FL, use Zephry

to most makes no difference since the engine will need to be shipped to most shops

Daytona used to be an ok shop, things have changed there for service

and yes they have an engine shop but extremely limited

not a place id want an engine oh done...

[Steve Dawson]

On November 19, 2015 at 9:34 AM, jetdriven said:

in Florida, use Zephyr.  They are a top rated engine shop.

I price out an engine for a 252 from Zephyr and they were very reasonable as well as having a good reputation. Secondly they'll remove and reinstall your engine at their shop. 

[LuisO]

On 11/19/2015 at 9:34 AM, jetdriven said:

in Florida, use Zephyr.  They are a top rated engine shop.

Exactly.

[jetdriven]

On November 18, 2015 at 0:26 PM, rocketman said:

I went through this dilemma this summer. My Bravo has 2100 hours on it and was running perfectly. Changed oil every 25 hours. Filters cut - no metal. Maybe a little extra oil consumption but not alarming. But something was bothering me. Since I am part 91 (non commercial) my options of extending it were mine. But really were they? I fly my wife and passengers frequently. Do I tell them that I am exceeding the factory's recommended replacement time? Do I tell them that I have to do added things to the engine to be sure its really OK to fly? Is this really fair to them. I kept asking these questions over and over. Finally during Oshkosh, I went to the Lycoming tent and talked to Dennis Coulborn from Williamsport who was very helpful. He told me that he can give me a rebuilt factory engine with new log book for the price of an overhaul if the engine was first run, and has never been overhauled before. So the next week I sealed the deal and bought the rebuilt engine from Air Power in Texas. Best prices, and highly recommended. To make a long story short, I am receiving my engine in freight tomorrow at Panama City Beach airport where Mitchell Hall from Sunset Aviation will be swapping the engines. Sent the props for resealing but not overhauling since I don't want the prop shop to file a lot of metal from the blades, All new oil lines, refurb and spruce up the engine compartment. All new accessories are standard with the Factory rebuilt engines including turbo, controllers, etc. So far happy with my decision.

Ask them what they'll do if your iron levels are over 100 ppm after you have 200 hours on it. 

[WorldWiseTrade]

Also Lycoming will only do that deal if the engine is less than 20 years old (per Airpower), so 1994 Mooney that is 1st run does not qualify, no matter how little time on the engine. Criteria is no previous overhaul and less than 20 years in service.

Happy Flying!