Mission Specific!! - Turbo Vs. NA Rocket Vs. Ovation

[M20F]

A chance to exit with some protection.

I stand to be corrected and by no means advise breaking rules but inadvertent TKS as far as I am aware only differs from FIKI TKS in terms of redundancy, not performance.

[AndyFromCB]

Not to start a huge debate over the 1% but for the most part icing you encounter in GA is going to be limited by a couple of thousand feet to where you get up/down to get through it and it tends to not go on for 100's of miles. All things being equal I want a 747, but don't think a turbo is necessary for ice avoidance and generally the only time I have picked up ice in the FL's is the summer where descending fixes the problem quickly. Likewise in the winter once you get a couple of degrees below 0 the icing stops (again minus the 1% who want to fly through freezing rain or other such things).

 

It's not about freezing rain. It's about being vectored in the winter for miles at 2000AGL, right in the worst of it for 10 to 15 minutes. And yes, around here and north east it can be miles and miles of it. Think about an approach to Chicago. They will drop you into the crud 15 or so minutes out and don't even try to argue with them. They don't play that game. You will be picking up lake effect ice for the last 40 miles or so of your trip. Not fun at all without TKS. So it's not about 1%. It's about anyone using their IFR ticket for real world travel.

 

Turbo help tremendously in having excess power climbing thru it, allowing you to keep your speed up, which is even more important with boots. They work much better at higher speeds than slow speeds. TKS actually works the best at lower speeds, but the 120KIAS limitation is there to prevent any ice from building underneath the wing. I've never found it to be an issue but I'd rather be safe than sorry, so I'm big on leveling off, accelerating and zoom climbing thru ice.

[AndyFromCB]

I stand to be corrected and by no means advise breaking rules but inadvertent TKS as far as I am aware only differs from FIKI TKS in terms of redundancy, not performance.

 

I'm not quite sure how anyone would bust you for this violation other than St Peter at the Pearly Gates. You either make it with ice or you don't...

[Shadrach]

My immediate and most honest thought is that for the flying you're doing, you don't need another plane.   The only case for upgrading is to get FIKI.  You have to deal with ice now but I'm guessing you can suck up the drive from your current location.  If you made the move, it would be cheaper and safer to just grab the 2 or 3 Commercial E-saver flights you'll need each year to avoid weather.

 

Upgrading airplanes on the basis of speed is silly.  2 hrs 26 min flight in the F vs a 1:45 to 2:00hrs in something with 2 extra Jugs or 2 extra jugs and a turbo.   Sorry, but it seems unnecessary.  I would feel different if your trip was >500NM over mountainous terrain. In that case, I'd personally want to be burning kerosene.  

[M20F]

It's not about freezing rain. It's about being vectored in the winter for miles at 2000AGL, right in the worst of it for 10 to 15 minutes.

The discussion was a need for a turbo to avoid icing which at 2000' a beefy NA Ovation is going to be a better bet. I don't dispute anything what you are saying but my response was in the context of the need for a turbo to fly effectively in ice.

[Shadrach]

The discussion was a need for a turbo to avoid icing which at 2000' a beefy NA Ovation is going to be a better bet. I don't dispute anything what you are saying but my response was in the context of the need for a turbo to effectively climb out of ice.

FIFY!

[M20F]

FIFY!

Gracias!

[AndyFromCB]

My immediate and most honest thought is that for the flying you're doing, you don't need another plane.   The only case for upgrading is to get FIKI.  You have to deal with ice now but I'm guessing you can suck up the drive from your current location.  If you made the move, it would be cheaper and safer to just grab the 2 or 3 Commercial E-saver flights you'll need each year to avoid weather.

 

Upgrading airplanes on the basis of speed is silly.  2 hrs 26 min flight in the F vs a 1:45 to 2:00hrs in something with 2 extra Jugs or 2 extra jugs and a turbo.   Sorry, but it seems unnecessary.  I would feel different if your trip was >500NM over mountainous terrain. In that case, I'd personally want to be burning kerosene.  

 

I'm not sure I like you anymore ;-) Airplanes exist for one reason and one reason only: speed. Speed is always a good reason to move on up. There is no such thing as too fast of an airplane, only too slowly replenishing checking account. There in lies the balance and it's called PC12NG.

[Shadrach]

I'm not sure I like you anymore ;-) Airplanes exist for one reason and one reason only: speed. Speed is always a good reason to move on up. There is no such thing as too fast of an airplane, only too slowly replenishing checking account. There in lies the balance and it's called PC12NG.

 

 

Andy, You must be a single man!  

My wife is as sweet as the day is long and my aim is to keep her that way. Also, as a finance professional, I am acutely aware of the future value of all of the money that goes into an upgrade and the extra fuel going out of the exhaust.  Airplanes used to appreciate in value. I don;t think we'll ever see that again. I plan on living another 50 or years (maybe more). I want to keep flying through most of that time instead of wishing I had saved more.

 

My F model is probably more airplane than I need 70% of the time, but it's almost as inexpensive to keep and feed as a C172.  It really is very very difficult to beat a 4cyl M20 on cost/performance (especially the ones with manual systems [flame suit on]).  Less then a dollar per nautical mile at 150kts is pretty freekin sweet (que Peter Griffen voice).  With 3 on board it actually becomes the most practical and cost effective way to travel for trips over >150nm and<1000nm.  

[M20F]

My F model is probably more airplane than I need 70% of the time, but it's almost as inexpensive to keep and feed as a C172.  It really is very very difficult to beat a 4cyl M20 on cost/performance (especially the ones with manual systems [flame suit on]).  Less then a dollar per nautical mile at 150kts is pretty freekin sweet (que Peter Griffen voice).  With 3 on board it actually becomes the most practical and cost effective way to travel for trips over >150nm and<1000nm.

You just need a TN system and long range tanks :-)

[Shadrach]

That would be my ultimate personal airliner if I could dress it like a 201.  

 

John Breda has created what I think is about the ultimate Mooney:

 

Modern aesthetics and aerodynamics 

TN system (most efficient way to make power at altitude)

Manual gear and flaps (reliable and light weight)

 

John if you read this, do contact me first when you're ready to sell!!!

[M20F]

That would be my ultimate personal airliner if I could dress it like a 201.  

 

John Breda has created what I think is about the ultimate Mooney:

 

Modern aesthetics and aerodynamics 

TN system (most efficient way to make power at altitude)

Manual gear and flaps (reliable and light weight)

 

John if you read this, do contact me first when you're ready to sell!!!

I love what he has done but 68 was the start of cost cutting and flush rivets and other things went, 67 is the year to have for an F. A TN J would be to me the ultimate but aside from a few oddly modified turbo bullets not aware of many. Why TN didn't take a stronger hold is really a mystery to me. There are a couple TN 400hp Commanches out there which if I could, I would.

[Shadrach]

I love what he has done but 68 was the start of cost cutting and flush rivets and other things went, 67 is the year to have for an F. A TN J would be to me the ultimate but aside from a few oddly modified turbo bullets not aware of many. Why TN didn't take a stronger hold is really a mystery to me. There are a couple TN 400hp Commanches out there which if I could, I would.

 

So maybe when money is no object, I'll just convert my 67 F.

 

 I think people used to be very afraid of blown, high compression engines. Even auto manufacturers were running CRs in the 7 to 1 range in the 70s and 80s. Saab really pioneered the light pressure turbo/high compression engine.

 

I like Js but really do not want to give up my current gear and flap set up.

[aviatoreb]

I love what he has done but 68 was the start of cost cutting and flush rivets and other things went, 67 is the year to have for an F. A TN J would be to me the ultimate but aside from a few oddly modified turbo bullets not aware of many. Why TN didn't take a stronger hold is really a mystery to me. There are a couple TN 400hp Commanches out there which if I could, I would.

 

 I read somewhere some guy turbo charged his 400hp 8 cylinder commanche so that he was getting 260TAS in the low FL20's  - as far as I know - that is THE fastest singe engine piston still certified aircraft TAS out there.

[AndyFromCB]

Andy, You must be a single man!  

My wife is as sweet as the day is long and my aim is to keep her that way. Also, as a finance professional, I am acutely aware of the future value of all of the money that goes into an upgrade and the extra fuel going out of the exhaust.  Airplanes used to appreciate in value. I don;t think we'll ever see that again. I plan on living another 50 or years (maybe more). I want to keep flying through most of that time instead of wishing I had saved more.

 

My F model is probably more airplane than I need 70% of the time, but it's almost as inexpensive to keep and feed as a C172.  It really is very very difficult to beat a 4cyl M20 on cost/performance (especially the ones with manual systems [flame suit on]).  Less then a dollar per nautical mile at 150kts is pretty freekin sweet (que Peter Griffen voice).  With 3 on board it actually becomes the most practical and cost effective way to travel for trips over >150nm and<1000nm.  

 

Happily married. However, too many of you need to quit this shit and start thinking like children again. Screw all that adulthood stuff. That's how you get old. Have some fun, live a little. When I'm 80, if I'm 80, money won't matter. I'll be on my way out...

[Shadrach]

Happily married. However, too many of you need to quit this shit and start thinking like children again. Screw all that adulthood stuff. That's how you get old. Have some fun, live a little. When I'm 80, if I'm 80, money won't matter. I'll be on my way out...

 

There's a CFII at my drome that ferried a C414 from Frankfurt Germany to West Palm Beach with no AP and the gear locked down in hard IFR for a good part of the trip. He was 78 at the time. That guy has an understanding wife. 

[fantom]

.....That guy has an understanding wife.

.....and my sincere admiration!

[mschmuff]

A lot of great info here!!

I agree with Andy on the TKS topic.  I always have the option of coming in a day early or trading a day with another pilot as to avoid known icing.  I don't plan on launching in to it but too many times i've been at altitude and found it so I don't really care about the legallity, I just want to be able to get out of it when inadvertantly encountering it.  Which works out well since I can't afford a FIKI a/c anyway!

Shadrach - I totally get what you are saying about it's only 30 minutes why bother upgrading.  And in other situations that makes sense but I can't fly commercially, I have no way to get from the airport to the base 1.5hrs away.  I will definitely keep flying the F but if we make the move I gotta upgrade.  With flying as much as I do, and that distance, I hate ice and also that puffy crap that goes up to 14 or 15K.  It also opens up more travel options for vacations with the family.

Everyone has given me great ideas - I think a TKS Rocket or a TKS 310 Eagle or O would be my first choice (If I can find one for the price).  I love the performance numbers but also being able to throttle back and get some decent economy.  Then a 231 or 252 with TKS.   Like others have said it just depends on what I can find at the time, how it's equipped, how it was maintained and of course, what I can get it for.

Thanks everyone for your input!

[GeorgePerry]

"Have to go" in a single engine GA aircraft regardless of equipment, engine, or FIKI isn't the right mindset. Using a light single to travel with should be thought of as a 90% solution. It works most of the time but there are situations where a trip in a light GA aircraft should never be attempted.

If you use a SE aircraft to travel with you should do some expectation management with anyone who expects you to arrive at your destination. I'd make sure they understand the weather gets a vote. Do this in advance and the pressure to arrive is deminished since they understand the limitations ahead of time.

The right mindset is just as important as the right airplane.

[Marauder]

"Have to go" in a single engine GA aircraft regardless of equipment, engine, or FIKI isn't the right mindset. Using a light single to travel with should be thought of as a 90% solution. It works most of the time but there are situations where a trip in a light GA aircraft should never be attempted.

If you use a SE aircraft to travel with you should do some expectation management with anyone who expects you to arrive at your destination. I'd make sure they understand the weather gets a vote. Do this in advance and the pressure to arrive is deminished since they understand the limitations ahead of time.

The right mindset is just as important as the right airplane.

I think this the logic Brett (bnicollete) used to justify moving up to the Baron. His single engine dispatch rate between his home airport outside of Pittsburgh and to where he was working in Delaware wasn't working out.

I see him flying a lot more these days in the Baron than he did in his Mooney. The other thing to keep in mind flying when flying in the northeast is how severe icing can be. When I see PIREPs of moderate icing from airlines coming into Philly, I'm positive I don't want to be there FIKI or not.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[aviatoreb]

I have a mission specific question.  I know there are endless posts about turbo Vs NA and Rocket/Ovation/Eagle/Missile discussions. 

 

I currently have an awesome F model.  New P & I, Cent III A/P, 430W, EDM730, HSI, Tanks resealed, new biscuits, etc.  I fly 95nm to work.  152kts TAS at 4000ft burning 10.3gph.  No brainer – the perfect plane for the mission!!

 

I have an opportunity to move to SC but want to keep working in DC.  I can’t give up being a GA guy and being able to fly up the Potomac at 200ft between the Washington Monument and the Jefferson, over the Tidal Basin and split the P’s!!

So the mission would be KCHS – 2W6 (365nm).  Every week - once up, stay the week – once back.  Home for a week then repeat.  All year - Winter/Summer.

 

My budget is approx.. $150k.  I like the simplicity of NA (Missile/Eagle/Older Ovation) but with the need to “have to go”  I like the turbo to get over WX and TKS/FIKI would probably be a must.  From what I have sceen, NA with TKS are $200k+ where 231’s, 252’s and Rockets are easily acquired for $150k or less!

 

Rule #1 – I do not want this to get into a debate of FIKI Vs Non-FIKI!! I get it!  I’m not going to launch into moderate to severe anything!!  But I’d like to have the protection if I get into something inadvertent.  90% of the time it will only be me.  The other 10% will be wife and daughter (an extra 250lbs combined).

 

I know maintenance will be less with the NA....but saving $75K on the purchase pays for a lot of maintenance.  Also, I have been at 10,000ft in my F and picked up ice and only had about 300ft/min climb to get out....pretty F'n scary!!

 

Thoughts??

 

Check this one out - listed here on Mooneyspace and on controller- a tks-231 that seems pristine, great panel, and a paint job that gives me paint-envy, at a super price:

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20K-231/1979-MOONEY-M20K-231/1326523.htm

[Yooper Rocketman]

Check this one out - listed here on Mooneyspace and on controller- a tks-231 that seems pristine, great panel, and a paint job that gives me paint-envy, at a super price:

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20K-231/1979-MOONEY-M20K-231/1326523.htm

 

That one won't last long on the market unless there is some surprise lurking on it.

[doubbrunn]

I face somewhat the same problems as you.  I fly from Baltimore to Florida in the winter.

 

TKS is good to have

Turbo is good to have

 

TKS + Turbo is the best.

 

In your price range, why don't you look at a de-iced 252 or 231?

[M016576]

"Have to go" in a single engine GA aircraft regardless of equipment, engine, or FIKI isn't the right mindset. Using a light single to travel with should be thought of as a 90% solution. It works most of the time but there are situations where a trip in a light GA aircraft should never be attempted.

If you use a SE aircraft to travel with you should do some expectation management with anyone who expects you to arrive at your destination. I'd make sure they understand the weather gets a vote. Do this in advance and the pressure to arrive is deminished since they understand the limitations ahead of time.

The right mindset is just as important as the right airplane.

Best statement of the thread.

[M016576]

I face somewhat the same problems as you. I fly from Baltimore to Florida in the winter.

TKS is good to have

Turbo is good to have

TKS + Turbo is the best.

In your price range, why don't you look at a de-iced 252 or 231?

De-iced 252= low useful load.