Amelia Posted November 4, 2014 Report Posted November 4, 2014 Y'all can be counted on to provide good advice to this CAMP, (cheap---Mooney pilot). I'm pretty well committed to flying to Puerto Rico in a month, and thinking it will be worthwhile to install a 406 ELT. Any thoughts on which one would be much appreciated. Prices run from $570ish to $2000+. Thanks! Mimi Quote
N9453V Posted November 4, 2014 Report Posted November 4, 2014 Which 121.5 MHz ELT do you have? Some manufacturers have an upgrade path to a 406 MHz ELT which is less effort to install. I had an old Dorne & Margolin ELT and they no longer make ELTs, so had to go to a new manufacturer. I selected the ACK E-04 due to price, but it was a fair bit of effort to install since I had to remove the interior to install the switch/annunciation panel and have a new metal plate machined to mount it on my panel. One thing to note, is that 406 MHz antenna must be at least 3 feet from other antennas. On my aircraft is was less than 2 ft from the rear COM antenna, this caused interference and I ended up replacing the rear COM antenna with a belly mounted Comant CI-122. -Andrew Quote
Ron McBride Posted November 4, 2014 Report Posted November 4, 2014 Check the prices and duration for the batteries. My ACK451 the batteries are $150 and good for 5 years. Ron 1 Quote
KSMooniac Posted November 4, 2014 Report Posted November 4, 2014 http://www.elt406.net/ There was a very recent topic on this... I'd strongly encourage you to check out the one linked above, and search up the last discussion. Good luck! A PLB might be a cheaper alternative if there isn't a regulatory requirement for the PR trip. 1 Quote
Mooneymite Posted November 4, 2014 Report Posted November 4, 2014 Mimi, if you're doing this because you'll be over-water, think about this....if your engine quits and you escape into a raft, the aircraft-installed 406 ELT won't be much good because it will sink with the airplane. A PLB is going to be better for this scenario because it will go with you into the raft, or stay with you while bobbing along in your life vest. If your engine quits and you don't make it out...who cares. About the only scenario I can think of where the 406 will help you is ditching on, or close to an island. I can tell you first hand, there are lots of jets flying overhead that maintain a listening watch on 121.5, so is the slim margin of difference worth the cost? 1 Quote
kortopates Posted November 4, 2014 Report Posted November 4, 2014 ACK E-04 is a great deal and the provides a GPS interface from your installed panel mounted GPS - very worthwhile if you'd like SAR to know your coordinates should the worse happen. The only downside is that they do not have a certified antenna that can be installed hidden in the fiberglass where your OEM antenna is. If you want that you'd have to go with the AIRTEX unit that Mooney worked with the manufacturer to enable such an installation under the fiberglass dorsal fin and get Mooney's antenna or mounting bracket. There is a Mooney Service letter on Mooney's web site with the details but it's more than twice as expensive. Strongly recommend against getting any 406 ELT that does not also have 121.5. 121.5 is still what the local responders (e.g., CAP, etc) use for searching for the plane, not 406Mh. The 121.5 freq also provides the benefit of verifying the unit is working properly at annual without special equipment or through a service with additional fees - keeps it easy to maintain. In addition to the 406, a 496 PLB is also great added insurance. You just can't count on being able to get to it and activate it after a crash so its not a substitute for an installed ELT IMO. Realistically, my waterproof/floating ACR PLB takes two hands to open the unit and extend the antenna whereas my ACK E04 has a button that can be pushed in the cockpit to activate in the unlikely scenario you know in advance you're going down and have a second to activate it. 2 Quote
PTK Posted November 4, 2014 Report Posted November 4, 2014 I'm contemplating upgrading my AK450 go the AK451 2D. The 451 doesn't have GPS capability but is slide in replacement for the 450 and does transmit NAV data on 406 Satellite. The ACK E-04 406 does have GPS capability but it's antenna can't be hidden under dorsal fin. At least that's my understanding. Please, someone more knowledgeable, correct me if I'm wrong. What's the advantage of GPS capability on these things since they do transmit on 406 satellite anyway. I'm leaning towards the 451, but need to be educated if the GPS capability is a real advantage or not. Quote
Jerry 5TJ Posted November 4, 2014 Report Posted November 4, 2014 What's the advantage of GPS capability on these things since they do transmit on 406 satellite anyway. Both low-earth orbit (LEO) and geosynchronous satellites carry receivers monitoring the 406 MHz ELT channel. If your 406 MHz ELT does not have a GPS receiver, or is not connected to a GPS in the plane, the satellite constellation geolocates your ELT using time difference of arrival and doppler as the LEO satellites move. Given a few tens of minutes one or more of the 5 operational payloads on LEO satellites will locate the ELT to within a mile or two. If the 406 ELT does have an associated GPS source the first transmission upon triggering will include the GPS location accurate to about 100 meters and either the LEO or geosttionary satellites can process the alarm. So the advantage of GPS is two-fold -- accuracy and speed of alert. Quote
OR75 Posted November 5, 2014 Report Posted November 5, 2014 I am not certain of the extra accuracy brought by a GPS connection. Or at least of the cost / benefit. In the case of emergency, one should not forget to trigger the ELT while in the air (with the panel mount switch) and let it yell the position as long as possible Quote
carusoam Posted November 5, 2014 Report Posted November 5, 2014 Sounds like going with both is a good idea. Installed one with an activation button on the panel and portable one to take with you after the less than fortunate landing. Life jackets, or raft and life jackets? Rentals available? Puerto Rico has some really nice beaches. Best regards, -a- Quote
Robert C. Posted November 5, 2014 Report Posted November 5, 2014 http://www.elt406.net/ There was a very recent topic on this... I'd strongly encourage you to check out the one linked above, and search up the last discussion. Good luck! A PLB might be a cheaper alternative if there isn't a regulatory requirement for the PR trip. Yep, check the Avionics forum, I asked a similar question 2 weeks ago. I'm Leaning towards the elt406 solution myself as I understand the ELTs with built-in GPs are chaper to install. The GPS interface apparently is quite expensive. Quote
Piloto Posted November 5, 2014 Report Posted November 5, 2014 Mimi, if you're doing this because you'll be over-water, think about this....if your engine quits and you escape into a raft, the aircraft-installed 406 ELT won't be much good because it will sink with the airplane. A PLB is going to be better for this scenario because it will go with you into the raft, or stay with you while bobbing along in your life vest. If your engine quits and you don't make it out...who cares. About the only scenario I can think of where the 406 will help you is ditching on, or close to an island. I can tell you first hand, there are lots of jets flying overhead that maintain a listening watch on 121.5, so is the slim margin of difference worth the cost? Mimi, if you're doing this because you'll be over-water, think about this....if your engine quits and you escape into a raft, the aircraft-installed 406 ELT won't be much good because it will sink with the airplane. A PLB is going to be better for this scenario because it will go with you into the raft, or stay with you while bobbing along in your life vest. If your engine quits and you don't make it out...who cares. About the only scenario I can think of where the 406 will help you is ditching on, or close to an island. I can tell you first hand, there are lots of jets flying overhead that maintain a listening watch on 121.5, so is the slim margin of difference worth the cost? +1 Totally agree. I myself only carry a portable PLB for this trip. There is no ELT type requirement for it. I also carry a marine hand held radio. Both float. If you do the trip non stop from the US it saves a lot of time in Customs and refueling. When returning back (if non stop) to the US avoid the $200 USDA (US Department of Agriculture) inspection charge for weekends and holidays departures.. There is no XM\WX coverage SE of GTK. I use my smart phone for WX in the vicinity of PR. But weather is VFR all winter. Have a good flight José Quote
kortopates Posted November 5, 2014 Report Posted November 5, 2014 I'm contemplating upgrading my AK450 go the AK451 2D. The 451 doesn't have GPS capability but is slide in replacement for the 450 and does transmit NAV data on 406 Satellite. The ACK E-04 406 does have GPS capability but it's antenna can't be hidden under dorsal fin. At least that's my understanding. Please, someone more knowledgeable, correct me if I'm wrong. What's the advantage of GPS capability on these things since they do transmit on 406 satellite anyway. I'm leaning towards the 451, but need to be educated if the GPS capability is a real advantage or not. I personally think they oversell the mounting compatibility. The truth is there is no slide in tray like your avionics tray up front and they all more or less share a compatible footprint. Mounting the unit is the smallest part of the install. All the units require a new 406 antenna to be installed as well as remote cockpit switch. If you want to include a GPS interface, then a wire will be pulled for that from your GPS along with the remote cockpit switch wire. The ONLY approved 406 antenna for under the fiberglass dorsal fin is the Artex unit using the Mooney supplied Artex antenna install kit (see SI M20-116 from Mooney for details) If your plane already has a Ameri-King remote switch that you can re-use, then you can save significant install time for that which is more meaningful in install cost than the tray mounting IMO. Depending on your Avionics guy, pulling the additional wire for the GPS interface can be significant as well. But in my case, I was already pulling the cable for the remote switch so it didn't add that much time. Given an Amer-King with GPS interface capability cost 2x the ACK E04 cost, I'd really have a good talk with your favorite avionics guy about what a full install for you will cost before paying double to save a few hours - unless you don't value the GPS interface which makes the cost delta a wash. Note that the unit that has a built in GPS certainly eliminates the install time for a GPS interface cable, but it doesn't also broadcast on 121.5 which I personally view as a very significant limitation. Quote
KSMooniac Posted November 5, 2014 Report Posted November 5, 2014 The unit I linked has a blade antenna that can go under the dorsal fairing easily. It's GPS is internal so connection to a panel mounted GPS is not needed. Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk Quote
chrisk Posted November 5, 2014 Report Posted November 5, 2014 I have an older version of this PLB. http://www.pilotshop.com/catalog/avpages/acrresqplus406.php I carry it in my flight bag and when traveling to remote areas by any means (bike, car, hiking, etc). Its relatively inexpensive and very portable. My guess is that it would be perfect for traveling in the Caribbean. To me it seems the most important thing is letting someone know you have gone down and where. The ocean is a big place. A portable PLB does that, and it can float along with you, reporting position (and drift), long after your plane has sunk. --With that said, I don't think there would be too many places on your PR trip where you would be out of gliding range to some land. Jose probably can let us know. For the plane I have have the Emerging Lifesaving Technology 406 ELT with built in GPS. Presumably it works, but I have not given it a real world test (nor do I wish too). Quote
PTK Posted November 5, 2014 Report Posted November 5, 2014 Ok, so I take it that there's no unit that broadcasts on 121.5 and have gps capability, either internal or wired to panel gps. Is this correct? If so what is more desirable, 121.5 or GPS? Quote
KSMooniac Posted November 5, 2014 Report Posted November 5, 2014 GPS, definitely. It cannot be overstated how valuable that is vs. 121.5 that is of dubious value even when it was the standard. It takes hours of searching to find a 121.5, and that is after a plane is reported as overdue or someone randomly hears a signal, which can take hours or days before a search is initiated. With the 406 + GPS solution, a satellite will pick it up almost immediately, and the registration data and GPS position will be in front of someone in the 406 office (whatever/wherever that is) to begin calling phone numbers associated with that unit. They'll know within a few hundred feet where the activation took place. The two stories told to us directly by the inventor of the Emerging Lifesaving Technologies unit were astounding. Single "blips" with coordinates before ( a ) a sea plane sank in a lake in Alaska and ( b ) a transport plane crashed into the side of a cliff in Antarctica. He received the phones calls about the units, looked up the owners, and confirmed the likelihood that they were actual accidents, which were found right where the unit reported. A 121.5 signal would've done absolutely no good in those cases. 121.5 is going the way of the AN ranges and ADF navigation. Quote
PTK Posted November 5, 2014 Report Posted November 5, 2014 Thanks Scott. What I meant and should've asked was what's more desirable 121.5, 406 and 243 or 406, 243 and gps. IOW, definitely 406 but with GPS or plain dual frequency? Quote
PTK Posted November 5, 2014 Report Posted November 5, 2014 Now for the million dollar question: The antenna needs to be changed when going to 406. Is the antenna in our Moonies hidden in the dorsal fin accessible from within the tail or does the fin have to be removed? Quote
KSMooniac Posted November 5, 2014 Report Posted November 5, 2014 The fin needs to be removed... relatively simple since it is pop-riveted in place. They drill out easy enough without damaging the skin. Quote
PTK Posted November 5, 2014 Report Posted November 5, 2014 Isn't it bonded on as well with some bonding agent? Quote
carusoam Posted November 5, 2014 Report Posted November 5, 2014 In reach explorer...? http://www.inreachdelorme.com/product-info/inreach-explorer.php Low cost, portable... To go with your choice of 406 MHz device. Came across this while reading Loop magazine. I have no experience with these devices. -a- Quote
KSMooniac Posted November 5, 2014 Report Posted November 5, 2014 Antennas are typically just attached mechanically and have some sort of gasket underneath. The ground plane connection is usually through the fasteners. Quote
Ron McBride Posted November 9, 2014 Report Posted November 9, 2014 I just received my new Lithium Batteries, $50.00 shipping, Haz Mat. Can I reinstall the ELT in the plane and sign it off, or is my A&P required to do it? How do I dispose of the old batteries? Thanks in Advance. Ron Quote
jetdriven Posted November 10, 2014 Report Posted November 10, 2014 The unit I linked has a blade antenna that can go under the dorsal fairing easily. It's GPS is internal so connection to a panel mounted GPS is not needed. Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk I don't think that blade antenna will fit under the dorsal fin Quote
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