M20M Bravo

[MReitz]

I am looking at a Bravo and was wondering if anyone had some insight on maintenance/annual costs? Or anything to be aware of when looking at them. I have been flying a columbia 400 a good bit, so I think I can handle the transition into the plane, but was just unsure how much costs the turbo would add to the annuals? Thanks!

[Skywarrior]

Just speaking from my own experience, the turbo and its heat can cause problems in the exhaust crossover tube and the wastegate butterfly valve. Those two items had to be either replaced or repaired after my pre-buy inspection.

 

However, dot dot dot... those problems can be minimized by running your engine at a lower power setting than the POH recommends. The POH seems to have been partially written by 'old' Mooney's marketing department. Yes, the turbine blades are made of a special material that allows operation up to 1750 degF TIT. Yes, you can run the engine at high power settings at most all altitudes.

 

But... that doesn't mean you *should*. Read or watch Mike Busch's papers/webinars on power management and causes of engine deterioration. Watch or attend an APS engine seminar. Understand how rich you really have to run a high-performance engine when at high MAP (assuming you run ROP).

 

Anecdotal evidence tells me that at least one other Bravo owner has had the same heat-related deterioration that my airplane has had. If you're willing to view a Bravo's extra power as a resource to be called up infrequently, only when really needed, I believe you'll find it is not much more expensive to annual than most other Mooneys.

 

On the positive side, the Bravo climbs to cool, smooth air very quickly. Once there, you can set up a reasonable power level and take advantage of the thin air and stronger tailwinds (well, *hopefully* *tail*winds).

 

Some owners are able to run their Bravo LOP. I can't. The best I can tell, the reason I can't is that the intake manifold won't supply fuel/air mixture evenly to all cylinders. But, as I said, some owners *can*. YMMV.

[Marauder]

I am looking at a Bravo and was wondering if anyone had some insight on maintenance/annual costs? Or anything to be aware of when looking at them. I have been flying a columbia 400 a good bit, so I think I can handle the transition into the plane, but was just unsure how much costs the turbo would add to the annuals? Thanks!

 

My brother-in-law owns a Coumbia 400 as well. Based on what his experience is, I would think less expensive.

[MReitz]

Do you have an average dollar amount that you typically spend on an annual? $5000? or more? I am used to non retractable Cessnas is why I ask.

 

Just speaking from my own experience, the turbo and its heat can cause problems in the exhaust crossover tube and the wastegate butterfly valve. Those two items had to be either replaced or repaired after my pre-buy inspection.

 

However, dot dot dot... those problems can be minimized by running your engine at a lower power setting than the POH recommends. The POH seems to have been partially written by 'old' Mooney's marketing department. Yes, the turbine blades are made of a special material that allows operation up to 1750 degF TIT. Yes, you can run the engine at high power settings at most all altitudes.

 

But... that doesn't mean you *should*. Read or watch Mike Busch's papers/webinars on power management and causes of engine deterioration. Watch or attend an APS engine seminar. Understand how rich you really have to run a high-performance engine when at high MAP (assuming you run ROP).

 

Anecdotal evidence tells me that at least one other Bravo owner has had the same heat-related deterioration that my airplane has had. If you're willing to view a Bravo's extra power as a resource to be called up infrequently, only when really needed, I believe you'll find it is not much more expensive to annual than most other Mooneys.

 

On the positive side, the Bravo climbs to cool, smooth air very quickly. Once there, you can set up a reasonable power level and take advantage of the thin air and stronger tailwinds (well, *hopefully* *tail*winds).

 

Some owners are able to run their Bravo LOP. I can't. The best I can tell, the reason I can't is that the intake manifold won't supply fuel/air mixture evenly to all cylinders. But, as I said, some owners *can*. YMMV.

[FoxMike]

The big items would be checking on crankshaft AD (applies to mostly later models and rebuilt engines).  Inspection of the exhaust system for cracks.  Also AD on tail which should have been completed (few airplanes were subject to any repair).  Crankshaft AD could cost a lot, I spent about 20K to replace the crank even though Lyc sent me the replacement for 2K.  I have owned mine since 2003 and like the airplane.  The wet head is a good feature if you fly high.  If you find one with TKS make sure it is working properly and that the stall strips are not starting to come unattached.  Get a good pre buy as the Bravo has lots of expensive to replace parts on it.  Good Luck!

[FoxMike]

One other thing are the Bravo's with G1000s and STEC autopilots.  The path to WAAS and ADS-b compliance is uncertain and could be (will be) expensive.  Probably best to avoid that equipment.

[Danb]

I spoke with Dorn at Weber's and they are a MSC and also do work on the 400 models..Based on a conversation with him he stated the maintenance costs for the 400 are significantly higher than my Bravo......Also as stated heat management is one of the most critical items to manage properly in an effort to minimize engine R/M costs...I had a small crack in my turbo at 400 hours and a small crack in my manifold exhaust at 540 hours and I pay strict attention to engine management...

[Skywarrior]

Pre-buy annual was $11,000. (deferred maintenance)

 

Next annual was $6,300. (new shock discs all 'round)

 

Recent annual was $1,600. (routine)

[gjkirsch]

The retractable gear is very straight forward and not maintenance intensive.  The engine cylinders are probably a lot more robust than the columbia 400 due to the wet head design.  As long as you don't push the temps as high as the POH says you can, you will likely have minimal turbo or exhaust issues.  Everybody does their on thing in engine management, mine is less than 1600 TIT and 200 degrees on the oil.  Everything else, (oxygen bottle, shock discs, fuel tank leaks, .....tend to not happen or be one time events with long term fixes).  Very reliable airplanes and if you get TKS, good in almost all weather.  Probably will run a littel more fuel per hour and maybe a little faster.  Typically see 205 knots true in the high teens at 19 GPH

[Danb]

Even though there are Bravo's with the G-1000 system who so far have been screwed due to not having WAAS at this time, I personally would not want another system, with Synthetic vision, large glass etc., there are to many positives vs. the negatives. The system is extremely easy and capable, definitely have been screwed so far by not having a reasonable fix. Speaking with Mooney engineer 's they supposedly are working on a viable solution,I'm not holding my breath but with the infusion of cash into the company it could happen. The actual cost of converting to WAAS is not extreme, but Mooney is out of bounds charging $55k+ at this time.

[KSMooniac]

Do you have an average dollar amount that you typically spend on an annual? $5000? or more? I am used to non retractable Cessnas is why I ask.

 

The RG portion doesn't add a painful amount to the operational cost of a Mooney, generally speaking.  The gear swing, pre-load check and emergency gear extension test are simple... < 1 hour of shop time.  The actuator needs to be inspected and greased while the belly is open, so not a big deal either.  The wear items are the rubber donuts (simple and effective vs. an oleo), and to a much lesser extent, the steering horn.  The gear doors have some rod end bearings as well that can wear out, but it isn't frequent by any stretch.  Lifespan on the donuts for a Bravo is less than other Mooneys due to weight, but should routinely get 6-8 years (my guess) especially if hangared and not exposed to UV.  They cost ~ $1k for a set, plus ~8 hours of shop time to change.

[Danb]

At a MSC I would expect the average annual to be between $ 4,000-$ 5000,  have all the annuals and maintenance on my 2005 Bravo done at MSC's....

[MReitz]

Thanks guys. It is a 1992 TLS Bravo. It does have wet heads from what I understand, so I think that will resolve some of the early top overhauls. It has an Garmin MX-20 MFD, which I do not know much about. I have experience with the G-1000 and love it, but other than that system I have only used the GNS430. I do not plan on pushing the temps as the POH states that you can, and do not expect to cruise at 200 kts true. I need a good bird to get me 700 nm in less than 5 hrs and this seemed like a pretty good one, as far as being economical. Thanks again for the help and advice.

[Skywarrior]

All Bravos, by definition, have 'wet' heads. All well and good. But that just addressed heat in the exhaust valve guides. A Bravo owner must also aggressively manage CHT, EGT, TIT, EIEIO...

 

You may wish to peruse this article about Bravos: http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20M_prepurchase_inspection.html