New Aspen Install

[PTK]

I hear you Scott.

The facts as I see them:

In a nutshell the chief complaints about G are centered around "they don't play nice with others" type of complaints and are crucified for that.

The chief complaints about Aspen are centered around "my Aspen pfd went blank and red x'd in flight" type of complaints.

In contrast to the G crucifixion, Aspen is given a free pass and a sympathetic ear because "they shipped another unit to me immediately!" Never mind that it failed, they responded quickly!

Never mind also that Garmin constantly rolls out something new and improved, whereas Aspen is running out of the same old replacement units!

Now, the way I see it and for my money, all I care about is that my panel works as advertised and that I can depend on it. When I take my airplane in the air I want confidence in my panel.That's what I pay for and I suspect, although not sure, that's what we all pay for! I'm all for competition and supporting competition as we all benefit. But as you said Scott, "Garmin needs some real competition." Today as things are I'm afraid G has no real competition. When our hard earned money exchanges hands we buy "into a company" and that company has to be worthy of it. "Worthy" to me means the company has wherewithal. I don't want sugarcoated words and excuses.

It is not at all important to me who gets their feelings hurt and cries because Garmin tossed some sand in their panties!

[N601RX]

Scott, Are these a few of the many post you were referring to?

 

"OVERPRICED AND UNDERACHIEVING"

 

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/178-avionics-upgrade-gps-in-panel/page-3

 

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/187-king-or-garmin/?hl=garmin#entry6458

 

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/237-control-wheel-upgrade-and-530/?hl=garmin#entry6617

 

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/290-avionics-upgrade-to-garmin-radios/page-2?hl=garmin#entry6596

[Marauder]

Scott, Are these a few of the many post you were referring to?

"OVERPRICED AND UNDERACHIEVING"

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/178-avionics-upgrade-gps-in-panel/page-3

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/187-king-or-garmin/?hl=garmin#entry6458

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/237-control-wheel-upgrade-and-530/?hl=garmin#entry6617

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/290-avionics-upgrade-to-garmin-radios/page-2?hl=garmin#entry6596

That was the old Peter Bendix-King. He drank the Kool-Aid (grape by the way) and is now a reformed man known as Peter Garmin.

[Marauder]

It is not at all important to me who gets their feelings hurt and cries because Garmin tossed some sand in their panties!

Well, Peter, I for one don't wear panties! Do you?

[M016576]

I hear you Scott.

The facts as I see them:

In a nutshell the chief complaints about G are centered around "they don't play nice with others" type of complaints and are crucified for that.

The chief complaints about Aspen are centered around "my Aspen pfd went blank and red x'd in flight" type of complaints.

In contrast to the G crucifixion, Aspen is given a free pass and a sympathetic ear because "they shipped another unit to me immediately!" Never mind that it failed, they responded quickly!

Never mind also that Garmin constantly rolls out something new and improved, whereas Aspen is running out of the same old replacement units!

Now, the way I see it and for my money, all I care about is that my panel works as advertised and that I can depend on it. When I take my airplane in the air I want confidence in my panel.That's what I pay for and I suspect, although not sure, that's what we all pay for! I'm all for competition and supporting competition as we all benefit. But as you said Scott, "Garmin needs some real competition." Today as things are I'm afraid G has no real competition. When our hard earned money exchanges hands we buy "into a company" and that company has to be worthy of it. "Worthy" to me means the company has wherewithal. I don't want sugarcoated words and excuses.

It is not at all important to me who gets their feelings hurt and cries because Garmin tossed some sand in their panties!

My chief complaint about Garmin is the same complaint I have about all these avionics companies: they are less capable than my iphone, have less computing power.., and cost a small fortune. 15,000 for a GPS reciever/display? Come on! I can buy a car (VW Jetta!) with a GPS installed in it for that...

I know: it's FAA certification and cost of development.. But geez.... Talk about crushing the little guy.

I whine, but I boughtan aspen. I guess that makes me part of the problem

[Marauder]

My chief complaint about Garmin is the same complaint I have about all these avionics companies: they are less capable than my iphone, have less computing power.., and cost a small fortune. 15,000 for a GPS reciever/display? Come on! I can buy a car (VW Jetta!) with a GPS installed in it for that...

I know: it's FAA certification and cost of development.. But geez.... Talk about crushing the little guy.

I whine, but I boughtan aspen. I guess that makes me part of the problem

The reason you bought the Aspen is simple. That Swiss watch Peter keeps talking about has a sticking second hand. Much better to have a digital Timex.

My gripe is the lack of integration. All of this stuff should talk together. You shouldn't need a list of compatability that is as long as the list was to launch an Apollo mission.

[PTK]

I often wonder if anyone has ever given serious thought into what kind of horizon these boxes really have. The components that go into them have a very short horizon and are going to be obsolete in a few years.

Do the manufacturers maintain a stock of components to maintain their boxes? These are important questions that need to be answered by Aspen, Garmin, Avidyne, etc.

Now looking at the GNS having a history of 14 plus years there's a ton of them out there. Even if or when G finally ends support for them there will be replacement units. Can this be said about Aspen?

This is why I call them very expensive disposable boxes and being stuck in a very expensive corner.

And Chris, my King HSI is indeed an electromechanical marvel that works like a fine Swiss timepiece. Like my grandfather's classic self winding Omega Geneve!

More importantly, and this is my point, parts are relatively inexpensive and available if we ever need them. That's a 30 plus year horizon...conservatively speaking!

Can your Aspen or a G500 even come close? Can any digital timex match that?

[Piloto]

PTK

 

You have some valid concerns. But technology today is much more reliable than the vacuum tubes era. A G530 will outlast the life expectancy of the old trusty KX-170 by three times or more. Most parts used in avionics are common to other brands or new products. If the company still in business should not be a problem having the unit serviced. Where you start having problems is when the manufacturer goes out of business. Not that much about getting the parts but the knowledge to fix the product. Reputable manufacturers like Bendix/King, Garmin, Collins provide maintenance manuals to repair shops to extend the life of the product. And there is always the option of total replacement with an equivalent unit like the IFD-540 or the KT-74 slide in replacement.

 

Most problems with any new products happens during the initial introduction. After some time in the field bugs are found and fixed or improved. A mature product will be more reliable than a new one, even a used one.

 

José

[M016576]

PTK / Jose have great points... The slide in replacement concept is *almost* the sign of stabilization/standardization I've been hoping for. It sure would be nice to have a Bus standard for all these units written down and agreed upon. That would drop install costs and compatability concerns significantly.

Manufacturers and installers would suffer, though. (Manufacturers through competition with one another, and installers through drastically reduced and simplified install times). it would be fantastic if AOPA would take this cause up for action: the net result would be a near term jump in avionics upgrades.

[PTK]

PTK / Jose have great points... The slide in replacement concept is *almost* the sign of stabilization/standardization I've been hoping for. It sure would be nice to have a Bus standard for all these units written down and agreed upon...

This is already happening with the GNS.

I don't see this happening with Aspen! They're already running out of replacement units to replace failed ones. This is an expensive dead end corner.

Nothing pro or against anybody! Just another case of caveat emptor!

[M016576]

This is already happening with the GNS.

I don't see this happening with Aspen! They're already running out of replacement units to replace failed ones. This is an expensive dead end corner.

Nothing pro or against anybody! Just another case of caveat emptor!

I was actually surprised when Garmin announced that the GTN wasn't slide in compatable with their GNS series. Talk about missing the proverbial boat on getting customers to "upgrade." I wonder what sort of behind the scenes discussions were going on when they decided to make a whole new pinout for exactly the same functionality (WAAS antenna, HSI/pfd compatability, autopilot, rs232, Arinc 429, comm out, etc).

I know: I'm bordering on conspiracy theory here: I wonder if aopa had a hand in it, to keep avionics shops in $5000 installs.

Garmin has its proprietary format, Avidyne has their proprietary format, Aspen has their proprietary format. Sure would be nice if they all "agreed" on one and went with it. Wishful thinking though- best we can hope for is basic compatability- nothing new here.

Where did you get your information on Aspen not having enough boxes to provide returns/repairs? That's the first I've heard of that- do you have an article or link to reference? I'd be interested in reading your source document: if my Aspen bites the dust, I'd like to have a repair strategy.

[Marauder]

I was actually surprised when Garmin announced that the GTN wasn't slide in compatable with their GNS series. Talk about missing the proverbial boat on getting customers to "upgrade." I wonder what sort of behind the scenes discussions were going on when they decided to make a whole new pinout for exactly the same functionality (WAAS antenna, HSI/pfd compatability, autopilot, rs232, Arinc 429, comm out, etc).

I know: I'm bordering on conspiracy theory here: I wonder if aopa had a hand in it, to keep avionics shops in $5000 installs.

Garmin has its proprietary format, Avidyne has their proprietary format, Aspen has their proprietary format. Sure would be nice if they all "agreed" on one and went with it. Wishful thinking though- best we can hope for is basic compatability- nothing new here.

Where did you get your information on Aspen not having enough boxes to provide returns/repairs? That's the first I've heard of that- do you have an article or link to reference? I'd be interested in reading your source document: if my Aspen bites the dust, I'd like to have a repair strategy.

You need to realize Peter Garmin is a dentist and I suspect when he makes these claims he has been partaking in his laughing gas supply.

Aspen is still selling the same boxes it was when they introduced the PFD and MFD products years ago. And since they are still delivering new, I find it hard to believe they can't provide replacement modules -- unless the supply has been reduced by the fact they are seeing decrease in their AFR (Annual Failure Rate) of installed boxes leading to a shortage. The easy fix would be to ship new Aspens. I would like to see the documents supporting Peter's claims.

Like all electronic products, you run the risk of the product going obsolete and the manufacturer going out of business. Recent example are all those guys who purchased the Zaon products: http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Portable-traffic-alert-system-maker-Zaon-ceases-operation220938-1.html. And this isn't relegated just to the small suppliers. Bigger names have also bit the dust; Narco, Terra, NorthStar, Collins can be found in our planes.

I am a proud owner of a Narco radio that has all of its parts locked up in litigation due it's bankruptcy proceedings.

If you follow Garmin's consumable products, you will see a trend of obsolescence. That changed when competitors like Tom Tom and others challenged their market position. Now instead of asking for $149 for a yearly map update, Garmin is now offering nüMap for life time supply of maps. You think they did that out of kindness?

The only reason Garmin didn't drop the GNS series was pressure from fleet operators. And you are absolutely right, giving owners the ability to upgrade to the GTN series with just a unit swap would have given them a big advantage in upgrades. I suspect there are some tray compatability issues as well as other mitigating factors (like aging trays causing warranty issues and loyalty to installers who make more money on installing than on the box itself).

Being in the electronics industry, support strategies are integral part of maintaining your brand in the market. If we obsolete a technology, we do lifetime buys on components, sub-assemblies and parts needed to support the product for the declared support life. Our support life is dictated often by the customer and is influenced by our suppliers.

Anything you buy can result in being unsupported. Now where did I leave that carburetor for my Clinton motor attached to my 1961 Troybilt rototiller?

[M016576]

You need to realize Peter Garmin is a dentist and I suspect when he makes these claims he has been partaking in his laughing gas supply.

Aspen is still selling the same boxes it was when they introduced the PFD and MFD products years ago. And since they are still delivering new, I find it hard to believe they can't provide replacement modules -- unless the supply has been reduced by the fact they are seeing decrease in their AFR (Annual Failure Rate) of installed boxes leading to a shortage. The easy fix would be to ship new Aspens. I would like to see the documents supporting Peter's claims.

Like all electronic products, you run the risk of the product going obsolete and the manufacturer going out of business. Recent example are all those guys who purchased the Zaon products: http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Portable-traffic-alert-system-maker-Zaon-ceases-operation220938-1.html. And this isn't relegated just to the small suppliers. Bigger names have also bit the dust; Narco, Terra, NorthStar, Collins can be found in our planes.

I am a proud owner of a Narco radio that has all of its parts locked up in litigation due it's bankruptcy proceedings.

If you follow Garmin's consumable products, you will see a trend of obsolescence. That changed when competitors like Tom Tom and others challenged their market position. Now instead of asking for $149 for a yearly map update, Garmin is now offering nüMap for life time supply of maps. You think they did that out of kindness?

The only reason Garmin didn't drop the GNS series was pressure from fleet operators. And you are absolutely right, giving owners the ability to upgrade to the GTN series with just a unit swap would have given them a big advantage in upgrades. I suspect there are some tray compatability issues as well as other mitigating factors (like aging trays causing warranty issues and loyalty to installers who make more money on installing than on the box itself).

Being in the electronics industry, support strategies are integral part of maintaining your brand in the market. If we obsolete a technology, we do lifetime buys on components, sub-assemblies and parts needed to support the product for the declared support life. Our support life is dictated often by the customer and is influenced by our suppliers.

Anything you buy can result in being unsupported. Now where did I leave that carburetor for my Clinton motor attached to my 1961 Troybilt rototiller?

I wish Jeppesen would give us a "Numaps" option for my 430W. I would actually update it regularly instead of buying the single updates when my trip looks like it's going to be IFR and the ILS won't cut it...

I think I'd even be willing to pay $1000 for lifetime updates... Alas, they won't do it.

[M016576]

You need to realize Peter Garmin is a dentist and I suspect when he makes these claims he has been partaking in his laughing gas supply.

Aspen is still selling the same boxes it was when they introduced the PFD and MFD products years ago. And since they are still delivering new, I find it hard to believe they can't provide replacement modules -- unless the supply has been reduced by the fact they are seeing decrease in their AFR (Annual Failure Rate) of installed boxes leading to a shortage. The easy fix would be to ship new Aspens. I would like to see the documents supporting Peter's claims.

Like all electronic products, you run the risk of the product going obsolete and the manufacturer going out of business. Recent example are all those guys who purchased the Zaon products: http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Portable-traffic-alert-system-maker-Zaon-ceases-operation220938-1.html. And this isn't relegated just to the small suppliers. Bigger names have also bit the dust; Narco, Terra, NorthStar, Collins can be found in our planes.

I am a proud owner of a Narco radio that has all of its parts locked up in litigation due it's bankruptcy proceedings.

If you follow Garmin's consumable products, you will see a trend of obsolescence. That changed when competitors like Tom Tom and others challenged their market position. Now instead of asking for $149 for a yearly map update, Garmin is now offering nüMap for life time supply of maps. You think they did that out of kindness?

The only reason Garmin didn't drop the GNS series was pressure from fleet operators. And you are absolutely right, giving owners the ability to upgrade to the GTN series with just a unit swap would have given them a big advantage in upgrades. I suspect there are some tray compatability issues as well as other mitigating factors (like aging trays causing warranty issues and loyalty to installers who make more money on installing than on the box itself).

Being in the electronics industry, support strategies are integral part of maintaining your brand in the market. If we obsolete a technology, we do lifetime buys on components, sub-assemblies and parts needed to support the product for the declared support life. Our support life is dictated often by the customer and is influenced by our suppliers.

Anything you buy can result in being unsupported. Now where did I leave that carburetor for my Clinton motor attached to my 1961 Troybilt rototiller?

I wish Jeppesen would give us a "Numaps" option for my 430W. I would actually update it regularly instead of buying the single updates when my trip looks like it's going to be IFR and the ILS won't cut it...

I think I'd even be willing to pay $1000 for lifetime updates... Alas, they won't do it.

[Marauder]

I wish Jeppesen would give us a "Numaps" option for my 430W. I would actually update it regularly instead of buying the single updates when my trip looks like it's going to be IFR and the ILS won't cut it...

I think I'd even be willing to pay $1000 for lifetime updates... Alas, they won't do it.

Considering the source of the data is from the FAA and at one time it was provided free electronically to these companies, it is the proverbial cash cow for them.

I keep all of my databases current and it costs me a 1000 AMUs a year.

[M016576]

Considering the source of the data is from the FAA and at one time it was provided free electronically to these companies, it is the proverbial cash cow for them.

I keep all of my databases current and it costs me a 1000 AMUs a year.

It certainly is a cash cow... But only because we pay it. My first 2 years with a 430 I paid the 350 a year to keep it current, but then realized that I only really use the "required" updated data in hard ifr conditions... So I opted to start saving about $250 a year by only doing single updates when I need to and using the rest of that money for avgas/maintenance/offset expenses.

I took a look at the other newer GPS boxes (avidyne, king, 650/750)- to see if their NavData was cheaper- nope, still expensive. Maybe AOPA could help us with these crooks, too? Nope... They are planning more star-studded "hat in the ring" gala's to cut user fees for turbine fliers. Hmmm I wonder who they are most interested in catering to...

Rant complete.

[cliffy]

So how can Avare give all the data and charts for free on a free app and the rest need a cash cow for updates?

[Marauder]

So how can Avare give all the data and charts for free on a free app and the rest need a cash cow for updates?

It's those wonderful "certified" boxes we have an addiction to which cost. Last time I checked, NOAA/FAA produced the chart & plate updates electronically for free. This is how FLTPLN can offer it for free.

There was a push about a year or so ago to start fees for this to help offset the loss of revenue the FAA was seeing from lost paper chart sales to the apps. Not sure if the FAA is charging commercial users of this data at this point. All of the chart & plate data in Garmin Pilot, WingX and ForeFlight (to name a few) apps comes from the mothership. They package it for their apps and charge us ~$150.

Garmin, Seattle Avionics and Jepp take the free data and put it into a downloable version for the certified boxes. Nice system...

[PTK]

"...Last time I checked, NOAA/FAA produced the chart & plate updates electronically for free..."

"...Garmin, Seattle Avionics and Jepp take the free data and put it into a downloable version for the certified boxes. Nice system...

First of all FAA data has never been "free." There have always been costs associated with the creation or acquisition of the raw data. In addition there are certification costs. What makes you think it's free or somehow if should be "free!"

If we as pilots want all these wonderful benefits like better situational awareness, weather, an ever increasing number of WAAS approaches which we'll never use, etc etc, we have to pay fo them.

Jepp collects and processes its own data. Both Jepp and Garmin process raw data and make it digestible to your "certified" panel.

You have choices one of which is not to buy the product.

If you like Jepp and you take the gov'mnt out of it you'll get a monopoly! Would that be better than what we have now?

What part of it really bothers you: that we have to pay for the data we use or that we have to pay Jepp or Garmin? Personally I'm ok with both of these. It's a great service and it's cheap.

This is a case where government really works in keeping costs down for us, i.e. GA, a very small segment.

As odd as that may seem it's true.

[Piloto]

Considering the source of the data is from the FAA and at one time it was provided free electronically to these companies, it is the proverbial cash cow for them.

I keep all of my databases current and it costs me a 1000 AMUs a year.

 

You must be rich. I only update once every three years. To be legal you only need to verify that your outdated data base data for the intended flight still correct. I check for approaches at Airnav.com, it is free. For route I just go to the pilot shop open the charts and look at them but no purchase. Do the same at the news paper stands.

 

José

[ArtVandelay]

You must be rich. I only update once every three years. To be legal you only need to verify that your outdated data base data for the intended flight still correct. I check for approaches at Airnav.com, it is free. For route I just go to the pilot shop open the charts and look at them but no purchase. Do the same at the news paper stands.

José

But how do you check the database, do you check the dates? They could add a waypoint to a chart or approach and you might not notice it. I've seen some updated and I've look at the older approach plate and could not find the change.

[PTK]

There a lot of changes and they do occur very frequently. 

 

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/faq/#q8a

[Piloto]

But how do you check the database, do you check the dates? They could add a waypoint to a chart or approach and you might not notice it. I've seen some updated and I've look at the older approach plate and could not find the change.

 

You only need to worry about the data for your flight not the whole USA. Besides most of my flights are VFR anyway. The only significant changes are the frequencies (ATC/ILS). 

 

At the RTCA circles 20 years ago there was talk of database updates via radio link to your plane. As you were flying over an area the database would be updated with data for that area. This way your database was kept always current. In fact it doesn't take much space to include airport frequencies on the XM METARS. Or have a separate field for current airport frequencies. The same could be done via the ADS-B/UAT link. But this would take Jeppesen out of business.

 

José 

[Cruiser]

First of all FAA data has never been "free." There have always been costs associated with the creation or acquisition of the raw data. In addition there are certification costs. What makes you think it's free or somehow if should be "free!"

If we as pilots want all these wonderful benefits like better situational awareness, weather, an ever increasing number of WAAS approaches which we'll never use, etc etc, we have to pay fo them.

Jepp collects and processes its own data. Both Jepp and Garmin process raw data and make it digestible to your "certified" panel.

You have choices one of which is not to buy the product.

If you like Jepp and you take the gov'mnt out of it you'll get a monopoly! Would that be better than what we have now?

What part of it really bothers you: that we have to pay for the data we use or that we have to pay Jepp or Garmin? Personally I'm ok with both of these. It's a great service and it's cheap.

This is a case where government really works in keeping costs down for us, i.e. GA, a very small segment.

As odd as that may seem it's true.

You certainly have a unique way of looking at this.

IF these companies are getting the FAA data for free and then modifying it so that you must BUY the free data from them to use in their equipment and charge the customer huge subscription fee for that requirement, I fail to see the logic in your suggestion that this is a great bargain.

 

What should happen is the FAA mandates all certified GPS/database units conform to a standard issued FAA approved data format that the users can download directly from the FAA website.......... for free since the cost of compiling that data is already paid by, wait for it, YOU and ME.

[M016576]

First of all FAA data has never been "free." There have always been costs associated with the creation or acquisition of the raw data. In addition there are certification costs. What makes you think it's free or somehow if should be "free!"

If we as pilots want all these wonderful benefits like better situational awareness, weather, an ever increasing number of WAAS approaches which we'll never use, etc etc, we have to pay fo them.

Jepp collects and processes its own data. Both Jepp and Garmin process raw data and make it digestible to your "certified" panel.

You have choices one of which is not to buy the product.

If you like Jepp and you take the gov'mnt out of it you'll get a monopoly! Would that be better than what we have now?

What part of it really bothers you: that we have to pay for the data we use or that we have to pay Jepp or Garmin? Personally I'm ok with both of these. It's a great service and it's cheap.

This is a case where government really works in keeping costs down for us, i.e. GA, a very small segment.

As odd as that may seem it's true.

Technically, we (as taxpayers) already pay for this service: the government (as a NGA, political and military requirement) already produces all this data whether civilians need it or not. You should see all the "free" charts here at my work, churned out like clockwork all at the expense of the taxpayer.

You are correct in one regard, though: Jeppesen does make the data that we already pay for as taxpayers compatable with our devices. For a huge price (IMO- 3x the cost of Garmin pilot pro / foreflight... And infinite times the cost of the free charts on fltplan.com... And those apps give you the whole chart, not just parsed waypoint data).