What gives FBOs the right?

[FloridaMan]

What gives a local government the right to grant exclusive control to an FBO at federally funded public use airports? I mean in regards to ramp fees charged on the ramp that wasn't constructed by or paid for by the FBO itself. To me, this is the same thing as a local government leasing a stretch of interstate highway running through their town to a local gas station and allowing them to put up a toll booth. 

 

With all of the resources that AOPA has, have they made any effort to address this parasitic practice?

[laytonl]

I was on an airport authority many years ago. IIRC the airport owner can't grant an exclusive right to anyone but itself (i.e., the county can be the FBO and exclude anyone else from having an FBO.). That said the owner can restrict competing FBOs by having reasonable requirements for a competing FBO. Absent a competing FBO, the owner is allowed to lease the entire ramp space to the incumbent FBO. Lee

[DaV8or]

The FBOs pay dearly for their ramp space. The airport needs the money to keep running. In exchange for this rent, the FBOs are allowed to charge to recoup their losses. By the same argument, why can't we tie down our planes for free? Why do we have to pay land leases for hangars?

 

Having said that, I too find it seriously annoying that at many public use airports that receive FAA funds, there is a trend towards removing airport transient tie down areas and forcing everyone to use a jet center type FBO just to drop a passenger off, or go get lunch for an hour. Sure, I can land and use the runway for free, but if I actually want to get out of the plane, I have to pay. I guess it's up to the individual airport as to how they use the ramp though.

[Mooneymite]

What gives a local government the right to grant exclusive control to an FBO at federally funded public use airports?

Great/timely topic, Antares! AOPA may have defeated user fees for now, but the growing phenomenon of paracitic (in some cases) fees charged by FBO's may end up being more damaging to our wallets and general aviation!

Seems like Landmark, Atlantic, and Signature are striking cozy deals with the airport boards to squeeze every penny possible from hapless travellers in return for monopoly status. If you think us poor prop guys are robbed, try flying a jet!!! A $600 ramp fee to drop a passenger is not unusual! Ramp fees, facility fees, handling fees, minimum fuel purchase of exhorbitant fuel, security fees, overnight fees....there's a new one everyday!

Birmingham, AL used to have two competing FBO's. Not any more. Atlantic controls both locations now. Do you think economy of scale has been shared with the customers? Ha!

More and more of the really nice non-chain FBO's are selling to the money grubbers. I hate it, but what can we do? I've written to several airport commissions to complain, but it's pretty obvious in the replies that the airport commission is in cahoots for the cash.

Well....I'll just park my plane. That'll learn 'em.

[FloridaMan]

Then why does it cost the same to drop off a passenger at Boca Raton as it does to stay over night as KLAS, and even more to land at Charleston to divert for weather? I call BS on arbitrary fees for using the field. Recoup it out of fuel prices. If you can't cut it, leave and either the city drops the rent or someone else will come in that can make it work. From what I've seen, it looks more like the big FBO chains are bribing their way in and the politicians are the ones who are profiting, not the municipalities. 

 

To put it another way, KFMY keeps the grass mowed, the FBO clean, provides top rate services, free parking for your first three days and charges $4.70/gallon for avgas. How is it that since Sheltair took over KSPG, a field a fraction of the size, there is now a $10 landing fee, fuel has gone up more than $1/gallon ($6.80 last I checked) and that, when I have tried to buy fuel at that premium price to save time, it takes less time for me to fly elsewhere for cheaper fuel than it does for the same line employees who used to meet me at my hangar when I landed with fuel? 

[chrisk]

Short of calling the FBO, how do you know what the fees are?   What if you just refuse to pay?   Tell them there was no prior agreement and you are not going to pay for walking inside to see what it cost.

[Mooneymite]

What if you just refuse to pay?

.

Since the FBO has your N#, I suspect the experience would be similar to refusing to pay a highway toll.

Calling ahead and asking about fees works well, since you can still try to make a deal. Once you've taxied onto their ramp, they've pretty well got you....and they know it.

Airnav comments were pretty effective in getting KROA Landmark to reduce some of it's more onerous fees once upon a time...most FBO's prefer "nice", but some obviously don't care and just block all Airnav comments.

[Parker_Woodruff]

The part that irks me is the crazy minimum standards that municipalities shove onto businesses on the field for competing businesses. Other than reasonable requirements for insurance and some safety standards, I see zero reason to kill off competition. After all, it's competiton that makes everyone better

[chrisk]

Since the FBO has your N#, I suspect the experience would be similar to refusing to pay a highway toll.

Calling ahead and asking about fees works well, since you can still try to make a deal. Once you've taxied onto their ramp, they've pretty well got you....and they know it.

Airnav comments were pretty effective in getting KROA Landmark to reduce some of it's more onerous fees once upon a time...most FBO's prefer "nice", but some obviously don't care and just block all Airnav comments.

They have you when you walk in the lobby and the door locks behind you. You have to pay to get back to your plane.

[midlifeflyer]

The FBOs pay dearly for their ramp space.

They do. In the ones I've seen, FBO ground leases include the obligation to maintain ramp areas at their own expense. And, depending on the airport, the ground lease cost can be very expensive. And in others, the FBO is actually a sub tenant of someone else who has the ground lease from the airport.

I'm also not sure what "competition" will do. I suspect most airports with a single FBO only have enough traffic to justify one. Where airport use supports the imposition of fees, the competition I've seen is mostly about the amount and what the FBO will seem a waiver.

And in terms of the fees themselves, sometimes the landing fee (or a substantial part of it) is imposed by the airport and just collected by the FBO.

None of us like being overcharged.

[M20F-1968]

I have not thought much about this problem but it would seem that the airport facilities directory and AirNav should have a current list of all fees publicized to protect them and pilots flight planning a trip.

 

John Breda

[KSMooniac]

The fees should be published, but frequently aren't. You have to call the fbos directly. They count on us not doing that.

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[John Pleisse]

The City of Frederick Maryland has given Landmark Aviation exclusivity over the entire field for fuel, avionics and general fixed base operations. They can neither serve the entire airport on their own adequately, nor allow alternative service literally, to the point the airport can't grow. Competition wins. An FBO that over charges for fuel and mx and makes a person wait 3 weeks for reapirs, doesn't deserve a strangle hold over a field.

[triple8s]

Would seem to me that if a city were to force the owner of an aircraft to use a particular maintenance company they would have to assume liability for the quality of the service provided.

[1964-M20E]

I’ve tried emailing FBOs before the only ones to respond were The big guys Sheltair Landmark.  The smaller FBOs at smaller airports would not respond for whatever reason.

 

I don’t mind throwing them a bone 10 gallons of competitively priced gasoline somewhat like stopping at a gas station and using their bathroom at least by a bag of chips.

 

I dropped off a PAX at MSY several years ago the ramp fee was something like $40 or fuel and minimum gallons was outrageous so opted for the fee.  They did however bring the PAX over to the terminal so he could get his car.

 

I have dropped off and picked up passengers off at DTS before with no charge.  So it is not all places that charge a landing fee but they do need to keep the doors open and generally you want some type of service when you get there.

 

I have landed at several airports with no landing fee, no bathrooms, no FBO and no fuel.  Not too bad if you have someone picking you up.

[FloridaMan]

I will oftentimes throw the line guys a $10 tip when they come help me out -- especially if they have to handle my airplane. I figure $10 is a small price to pay to get them to handle your plane with better care. 

[midlifeflyer]

I’ve tried emailing FBOs before the only ones to respond were The big guys Sheltair Landmark.  The smaller FBOs at smaller airports would not respond for whatever reason.

 

It's the famous level of business sense shown through the years by aviation businesses.  You know, the folks at the flight training/aircraft sales FBO who ignore the stranger who walks in until she gets fed up, hops in her Mercedes, and goes to the wharf to buy a boat and take boating lessons? They also have posted email addresses they never respond to.

 

There are, of course, FBOs who do reply to emails. I frequent them all they time and they, almost without exception, provide good service.

[KSMooniac]

My hometown airport looks to be doing a similar gouge, but in reverse!  McKinney TX, KTKI, is squarely in the middle of the population surge of the DFW area.  Just today Time listed it as the #1 small city in the US.  The airport used to be served by Cutter as a sole-source FBO.  Usually provided excellent service, but their fuel prices were as high as Dallas airports, plus they had ramp and tie-down fees.  For some reason the city decided they could do a better job so late last year they booted Cutter and took over the operation.  They remodeled/expanded the FBO space and did a great job, AND the fuel prices went down!  Win-win, right?  

 

Today a friend just sent me the results of a city council meeting and apparently the city will now institute a $50 invoice fee on top of ramp fees and their $1.66 markup/gallon of fuel.  (I have no idea if that markup is normal or not, they just said they'll now charge cost + $1.66 + tax).  I've never heard of an invoice fee, but it reads to me like any interaction will trigger it.  I suspect I'll be going elsewhere now.

[FloridaMan]

That sounds odd for the Midwest (I'm guessing there's so much competition out there that it's hard to hold a monopoly like in southeast Florida where all the land is developed or is wildlife reserves. I opted to play it safe when flying into Wichita for work and chose KICT. For a Class C airport, I was pleasantly surprised with Yingling. I took 50 gallons on self-serve at $5.50/gallon and they didn't charge me for the four nights I was parked on their ramp. 

[KSMooniac]

Yingling does a great job on the FBO side.  Their MX is very highly priced and not commensurate with the quality IMO.

[flyboy0681]

Seems like Landmark, Atlantic, and Signature are striking cozy deals with the airport boards to squeeze every penny possible from hapless travellers in return for monopoly status. If you think us poor prop guys are robbed, try flying a jet!!! A $600 ramp fee to drop a passenger is not unusual! Ramp fees, facility fees, handling fees, minimum fuel purchase of exhorbitant fuel, security fees, overnight fees....there's a new one everyday!

 

 

Boy did you strike a nerve. Landmark, Atlantic and Signature took over the FBO's at some of the airports that I used to fly into because they had cheaper gas than at my base. Since they took over (especially Landmark at F45), they raised the price of gas on average $2.00 a gallon. Strange thing is, everyone that I speak to about it who had also flown into these fields to fill-up, no longer do. That said, why do the FBO's boost their prices so much when they lose a lot of business?

[Mooneymite]

Boy did you strike a nerve.  That said, why do the FBO's boost their prices so much when they lose a lot of business?

 

Flyboy, that's a good question.

 

I suspect the business model the big FBO's subscribe to is:  raise the prices to squeeze out the low-end (that's us!).  Just think how many Mooneys buying 10-20 gallons it would take to equal the one jet that comes in and buys 500 gallons of jet-juice.  They really don't want that many spam cans on their ramp crowding the jets.

 

I suspect they'd love to completely do away with Avgas and just sell Jet A.  Making Avgas rediculously expensive is how they're doing it.

[flyboy0681]

Flyboy, that's a good question.

 

I suspect the business model the big FBO's subscribe to is:  raise the prices to squeeze out the low-end (that's us!).  Just think how many Mooneys buying 10-20 gallons it would take to equal the one jet that comes in and buys 500 gallons of jet-juice.  They really don't want that many spam cans on their ramp crowding the jets.

 

I suspect they'd love to completely do away with Avgas and just sell Jet A.  Making Avgas rediculously expensive is how they're doing it.

 

Your point is well taken for those FBO's that service kerosene guzzlers. The example I gave, North County (F45), is a GA airport north of Palm Beach, and is currently charging $7.53 a gallon for 100LL. The same goes for Pahokee (PHK), which used to have the cheapest gas for miles until Landmark took over, now it's among the most expensive. And this is a really, really small airport.

[KSMooniac]

As mentioned previously, typically the lease arrangements for FBO's include "minimum standards" that they must meet.  Usually this will include 24 hour access, security, sales of Jet A and 100LL, perhaps maintenance, hangars, etc.  Since the jet centers must meet those standards, they jack up the price of 100LL to effectively keep us out while still meeting the requirements of the lease to provide it.

 

It is rare to see a crowded ramp anymore, anywhere, in my observation short of a special event like a major college football game.  Except for Aspen...their ramp is always full.  That is one place where it cost me more to park for 3 days than it did to buy ~30 gallons of gas!

[Mooneymite]

 The example I gave, North County (F45), is a GA airport north of Palm Beach, and is currently charging $7.53 a gallon for 100LL. The same goes for Pahokee (PHK), which used to have the cheapest gas for miles until Landmark took over, now it's among the most expensive. And this is a really, really small airport.

 

I checked Airnav.com fuel prices in your PBI area  http://www.airnav.com/fuel/local.html.  

 

Wow!  Not much to cheer about in south FL.  I see that Atlantic at PBI 100LL is over $9/gallon today.  Compare this with an airport just south of ATL near me (KOPN) where fuel today is $4.95 (SS).  That's over $4/gallon difference for 100LL.  (I presume OPN is still making money at $4.95!)

 

If it isn't an active plan to drive pistons away, it might as well be.  Be glad you drive a Mooney and not a really thirsty plane.