Malaysia Airlines

[flyboy0681]

Let's see three ... That's THREE (3) terrorist attacks on America the past five years:

1) Our consulate in Benghazi

2) Fort Hood

3) Boston

I am sure you didn't notice a thing!

Good thing our borders are secure!

 

I hadn't heard that the Boston bombers and Fort Hood shooter came from over the Mexican border. And looking at a map, I don't see where Libya borders on Mexico - but that would be their border problem, not ours.

[flyboy0681]

The footage from the impact site where the triple seven came down is pretty chilling, people still strapped into their seats and baggage all over the place. One unmistakable piece of wreckage is the six wheel main landing gear, sans any tires. 

 

CNN and Fox are both reporting that locals are looting the scene. Hard to believe, but not really.

 

In the U.S. and most parts of the civilized world the scene would be sealed off and trespassers would be arrested. But I guess in the Ukraine anything goes.

[flyboy0681]

Congratulations on being able to read a map. But I didn't say the Fort Hood shooter or Boston bombers came across the Mexican border ... now did I?

I said there have been three separate terrorists attacks on Americans in the past five years ... and I sarcastically mentioned that are borders are still not secure either. (even though that is a primary recommendation of the 9-11 report)

Maybe put on some Beatles/Paul McCartney "All you need is Love" ... and let's all have a big group hug?

 

 

I guess my sarcasm wasn't picked up either.

 

That particular Beatles tune has been a rallying cry for nearly 50 years now. Sadly that message and Give Peace A Chance, haven't been heeded. 

[Guest]

Well, I think we can point some fingers at the Ruskies too. It's not like one can just go to Walmart and pick up a ground to air missile. They have been supplying heavy weaponry to a bunch of jackasses. One can only hope it backfires on them eventually...

I'm not that good at American history, but, it seems to me that there may have been some American made weapons supplied to the Afgan " Freedom Fighters" during the Russian invasion of Afghanistan which later were used against American forces after 9/11. Talk about back firing.

Clarence

[Marauder]

I'm not that good at American history, but, it seems to me that there may have been some American made weapons supplied to the Afgan " Freedom Fighters" during the Russian invasion of Afghanistan which later were used against American forces after 9/11. Talk about back firing.

Clarence

You are talking about the stingers...

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[flyboy0681]

I'm not that good at American history, but, it seems to me that there may have been some American made weapons supplied to the Afgan " Freedom Fighters" during the Russian invasion of Afghanistan which later were used against American forces after 9/11. Talk about back firing.

Clarence

 

Very much true. And I don't want to dredge up some really painful memories, but in July 1988 an American missile brought down an Iranian Air A-300. 290 perished in that incident.

[fantom]

Very much true. And I don't want to dredge up some really painful memories, but in July 1988 an American missile brought down an Iranian Air A-300. 290 perished in that incident.

 

Comparison makes about as much sense as suggesting a plane produced by Mooney killed Bill and injured Mike.

 

And this Iranian Airliner accident is one you can't blame on Bush.

 

Putin will get Eastern Ukraine just as he got the Crimea. The people in the east are mostly Russian and the east is where the industry is so he will not stop. Europe will do nothing but talk because he controls their heating oil, thanks to their incompetent leaders. We will do next to nothing but demand investigations   and the world will not act without us in the lead, but we have an absentee head of state. It's a done deal, has been for a while, and started way back when Putin invaded Georgia.

 

The former head of the KGB has it all over the former college teacher. We may be doomed

[flyboy0681]

 

And this Iranian Airliner accident is one you can't blame on Bush.

 

 

 

 

Now did I mention Bush anywhere? I blame it entirely on Reagan!

[chrisk]

Its got to be pilot error.  The pilot was flying the plane.  The plane flew into a dangerous situation.  And the pilot should have known it was dangerous.  --No different than flying into a big thunder storm.

[Guest]

"And this Iranian Airliner accident is one you can't blame on Bush."

An accident would be something like a short circuit in the fire control wiring which lead to the firing which no one meant to happen, as opposed to the sailor who was commanded by the captain of the USS Vincennes to fire the missile.

Clarence

[chrisk]

"And this Iranian Airliner accident is one you can't blame on Bush."

An accident would be something like a short circuit in the fire control wiring which lead to the firing which no one meant to happen, as opposed to the sailor who was commanded by the captain of the USS Vincennes to fire the missile.

Clarence

 

It was an "accident" in the sense that the ship though it was under attack.   -Now one could ask if that was a reasonable assumption to think the ship was under attack.  For me the answer is yes, based on the history. (Although my memory is not precise, as it was years ago)   Many, many, many times stronger than the WMD in Iraq arguement.

[flyboy0681]

It was an "accident" in the sense that the ship though it was under attack.   -Now one could ask if that was a reasonable assumption to think the ship was under attack.  For me the answer is yes, based on the history. (Although my memory is not precise, as it was years ago)   Many, many, many times stronger than the WMD in Iraq arguement.

 

While true the crew thought it may be under attack, hearings later on revealed that the "signature" of the Airbus didn't jive with a military plane, one of them being that it was in a slow climb, not heading directly in their direction (it was in a right turn). Add to the mix that the Vincennes was in Iranian waters at the time.

[Hector]

I think it's becoming pretty obvious day by day who was responsible for this. Between the intercepted phone conversations between the separatist and Russian military, the flow of sophisticated weapons from Russian to the separatist and their use to shoot down Ukrainian aircraft, the location over which the aircraft was traveling, etc, etc. etc.

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[AndyFromCB]

I'm not that good at American history, but, it seems to me that there may have been some American made weapons supplied to the Afgan " Freedom Fighters" during the Russian invasion of Afghanistan which later were used against American forces after 9/11. Talk about back firing.

Clarence

 

Well, we're not exactly and have never been known for long term thinking, now have we?

 

Comparison makes about as much sense as suggesting a plane produced by Mooney killed Bill and injured Mike.

 

And this Iranian Airliner accident is one you can't blame on Bush.

 

Putin will get Eastern Ukraine just as he got the Crimea. The people in the east are mostly Russian and the east is where the industry is so he will not stop. Europe will do nothing but talk because he controls their heating oil, thanks to their incompetent leaders. We will do next to nothing but demand investigations   and the world will not act without us in the lead, but we have an absentee head of state. It's a done deal, has been for a while, and started way back when Putin invaded Georgia.

 

The former head of the KGB has it all over the former college teacher. We may be doomed

 

On what exactly is your proposal here or for that matter all you other chicken hawks? Go to war against Russia for messing in their "internal" affairs? We've been invading and meddling in central america for last 60 years to the point where most of it is so broken that good portion of people there see no other option but to "invade" us via the southern border. I don't see Russia bitching about that.

 

I'm sure you all will be the first to volunteer and happily contributed 90% of your income to the IRS to pay for it all. Yeah right.

 

Please explain to me what exactly do you propose we do? Bomb Moscow? Good luck with that…Why is it that most so called fiscal conservatives are incapable of doing simple cost to benefit analysis. 9/11 was a clear example: $2 billion of buildings destroyed, which insurance paid for, $1.4 trillion down the drain that accomplished exactly opposite of the mission statement. US turned the whole world upside down, created giant power vacuums in a giant cluster fuck of a mission, instead of what should have been a law enforcement operation. Every time we bomb another wedding and/or funeral, we just simply create more "terrorists" and quite frankly, it's pretty hard calling anyone shooting at us in Afganistan terrorists at this point. Under Geneva convention the occupied have a right to attack the occupier. Do I feel bad every time another dumb, young American kid that drunk too much patriotic koolaid gets killed over there. You bet you I do. But their lives are no different than hundreds of thousands of lives we've destroyed in the middle east.

 

And Putin was nothing more than a mid level paper pusher, not a head of KGB. And Europe does not heat with oil, it heats with natural gas. Get your basic facts in order before arriving at conclusions. Details matter. That's where the devil's at. Patriotic fervor combined with too little in terms of details, especially in departments of geography and history, is how we got into this mess in the first place. Take a note of Iraq's border drawn with a ruler by some Brit 80 years ago. Show me another stable country with straight line borders. There isn't any. You know why? Because stable borders take hundreds of years of small wars to finally settle up solution agreeable to all involved. Our fearless leaders apparently missed that. Seems to me older Bush understood that clearly when he did not push to Bagdad. Sometimes an apple does indeed fall far from a tree, and apparently bruises too. History repeats itself first as tragedy second as farce.

 

Our own little Ukraine, known to most who were interested long before 1997 declassification of documents:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Guatemala

 

We're all guilty of doing the same shit. That's it for tonight, kids. 

 

[Guest]

"It was an "accident" in the sense that the ship though it was under attack. -Now one could ask if that was a reasonable assumption to think the ship was under attack. For me the answer is yes, based on the history. (Although my memory is not precise, as it was years ago) Many, many, many times stronger than the WMD in Iraq arguement."

The USS Vincennes was within the territorial waters of Iran which happened to be in a war with its neighbour Iraq. I don't think they entered the waters by accident.

Clarence

[wiguy]

It looks like the airlines are done flying anywhere close to this area now.

[scottfromiowa]

Newsflash:

AssfromCB now states: You are a DUMB AMERICAN KID if you feel pride in your country and enlist in the service of your country..

Dumb, Moronic, Stupid....Your words

You have no understanding what a CONSERVATIVE is...

Second news flash: AssfromCB thinks we are all kids...He is the experienced knowledgeable parent showing us the "right way"...

Smug, Elitist, Arrogant, Socialist...my words

Keep sucking from the government tit. Keep taking my money to better yourself.

[flyboy0681]

I think it's becoming pretty obvious day by day who was responsible for this. 

 

Yup, six of one - half dozen the other.

[scottfromiowa]

Sometimes it not what you say or do, but HOW you say or do "IT".

The United States is divided. Two sides on top of a mountain ledge. There is no longer any "middle-centrist" viewpoint.

Blame: The airline for trying to save some fuel

Blame: Ukraine for giving up their nukes

Blame: The Russians for their expansionist power seeking

Blame: The Europeans for becoming reliant on Russia for their Natural Gas Supply.

Blame: The U.S. ...for NOT being energy independent.

How 'bout that border?....Good Times...

[scottfromiowa]

I believe that the United States IS EXCEPTIONAL and that STRENGTH IS LEADERSHIP and LEADERSHIP IS STRENGTH.

and that there is no FREE LUNCH.

[flyboy0681]

Blame: The airline for trying to save some fuel

 

 

CNN just reported that the flight took the northern route due to severe thunderstorms to the south and that Malaysia had been using the southern route all along - except for that day due to weather.

[Hank]

And that the people currently filling the traditional leadership roles are insipid, spineless windbags who couldn't collectively lead a single first grader across the classroom to use the toilet . . .

Woe is us . . . . .

But let's get back on topic, to the folks that shot down an airliner thinking it was a military cargo plane.

[M016576]

I hear on the news about these missile detectors for fighter planes. I have some questions for a fighter pilot on this forum.

1. How the hell you know if your missile detector is working? I do not think the Russians use the same radar frequencies for the missiles they sell on the market. And I don't think missile radar specs. are published.

2. How the detector differentiates a missile radar burst from a burst on the ground? A burst from the ground can force the pilot to eject thus achieving the same objective as a real missile of knocking down the plane.

José

Without getting too far in depth-

There are 2 different "flavors" of systems out there- IR detection systems and RWR (radar warning receivers). The IR systems are mounted mostly on helicopters and slow movers to give a detect for a manpad launch. RWR is used to determine if you're being tracked by a radar (either surface based, or an air intercept radar).

1). The system runs a BIT when you activate it. That covers the majority of the faults that could be in the system. Every couple of months, you taxi through a series of emitters and cross check that each quadrant (sensor) is displaying the correct symbology. The US, as well as every other major military power out there, collects sigint on all of these surface to air missile systems, which can be programmed into the RWR. Certain types of radars operate primarily in certain bands, so even if you don't know the exact waveform, when your RWR picks up certain PRF's, amongst a certain band, it can be reasonably certain that it's being illuminated by a search radar, target tracking radar, missile guidance waveform (continuous wave illumination), etc. you can't really stray from these frequency bands, or the underlying purpose of the emitter will be degraded or defeated, as they won't be able to guide , or track their targets effectively.

2). False indications are certainly a problem. You don't eject based solely on a missile launch cue from your RWR- but you apply a certain level of defensive response based on what is illuminating you and what sort of missile that system could be guiding. You also use trend data- your RWR equipment shows levels of detection... Starts with a search radar, moves to a target tracking radar, finally, shows a CW illumination. Some SAMs don't need to use an illuminator, so you have to defend once it goes into track. For a surface threat, typically you try to put it at 90 degrees and dispense chaff while activating you jammer or releasing a towed decoy (if you're equipped). If you're far enough away, you can turn around and try to defeat the missile kinematically, but most SAM sites / doctrines, try to wait until the target aircraft is inside of an escapable range.

[M016576]

While true the crew thought it may be under attack, hearings later on revealed that the "signature" of the Airbus didn't jive with a military plane, one of them being that it was in a slow climb, not heading directly in their direction (it was in a right turn). Add to the mix that the Vincennes was in Iranian waters at the time.

Also add to the mix that the Iranians were at the time, using those departing airliners as cover for their F-4's and F-14's: flying close formation with them and then making runs on American ships once they were close enough and unobserved. The ID bleed over may have been in part due to this. Certainly an effective tactic, but not very moral as the target ship may mistake the airliner as a fighter and shoot it down. Other countries have been known to use these tactics as well. Neither is it moral for Hamas to strap children and invalids up with suicide vests, but it's still done.

I can't imagine the terror of being on that flight: those warheads don't kill everybody... The majority of those passengers had a 5 mile fall to try to figure out what just happened. Terrifying.

[yvesg]

CNN just reported that the flight took the northern route due to severe thunderstorms to the south and that Malaysia had been using the southern route all along - except for that day due to weather.

You can see this flight path here: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140717/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK

You can compare with the path for other days. They did indeed fly a more northernly route on that day but looking at the different days, we can see that the were going across most of Ukraine on most flights.

Yves