What's it worth if anything? M20E

[Turbo69bird]

My friend has a very nicely restored mooney, this plane got me very interested in the mooney line.

As a new pilot Im not looking to spend a lot of money to get in the air, I perf boat, and race cars already so flying budget is low. So when a not so clean mooney popped up I figured Id take a look.

The plane is a 63 or 64 turbo normalized, m20e its in less than perfect shape, paint is base clear and the clear is falling off all over the plane, in fact in some areas it's through to the primer, all the pucks in the gear are shot, the interior is pretty well in need of a full replacement. It does have a good low time, fuel injected 200 hp engine, avionics are old original type, radios are out of the plane so not sure about the condition of those, it runs good but has been sitting a while( few years, said to be started on and off to keep it oiled.)

The big kicker is the plane has two damage history notes, one gear up landing little to no damage.

The other was a power line strike! Landed safely without, rudder and stabilizer. However that was back in 79.

I know your probably all saying run don't walk away! Either that or is this post for real.

Yes it's for real, my friend who owns the mooney flew over and looked at it with me and thinks it could be an inexpensive time builder, with a little work. Worst case scenario part it out

Figured Id get the thoughts of more mooney guys here, and especially some thoughts on its value as it sits.

Sorry I don't have any pics at this time.

[urbanti]

Just FYI, there is a school of thought among mechanics that periodically starting an engine on the ground without flying the plane for an hour or more can actually result in more moisture in the crankcase, with resulting rust in cylinders, camshafts and lifters.

If you're serious, and if the plane is priced cheaply enough, this plane screams out for a really, really good prebuy.

best

Tim

[rbridges]

run, don't walk.  You nailed every red flag except fuel leaks and corrosion.

 

avionics--old and expensive to upgrade

interior--may be reasonable to upgrade if you do it yourself., but I've seen quotes in the thousands of dollar range

engine--low time, but he hasn't been flying it regular.  all kinds of potential issues.

exterior--paint is shot (maybe), and that's not cheap.  landing gear pucks aren't horribly expensive, but it's not cheap either.

 

 

good mooneys can be found in the low 40's, the list above will blow past that.

[Danb]

RUN FAST !!!

[N33GG]

There is no Mooney on this earth that qualifies as a low cost time builder. Low budget means go look for a fixed gear fixed prop much simpler aircraft.

[Turbo69bird]

Oh yeah did I forget to mention it might need at least one leaking tank fixed. . Ones pretty damn close to empty so Id assuming....

As for engine moisture I am familiar with that from boats and planes.

Pretty much the only thing this doesn't have wrong, YET is airframe, corrosion. Lmao

I'm sure I'm making it sound worse than it actually is, in reality

I would do a pre buy with someone I trust.

If I were to fly it

As far as avionics goes, the stuff supposedly works, it's just really outdated, it's got old auto pilot etc , but it would be a day vfr deal for me, I wouldn't paint it, I wouldn't update avionics, I'd simply fix what's needed for safety, and fly as is. Though I might do new covers on the seats , I've done auto upholstery on older cars so that's no big deal to do myself.

I don't care about looks safety is my only concern.

I'd fly it for a while and part it out when something broke and needed replacement that was deal breaker,

obviously all of this is after a good pre buy and safety inspection, check for corrosion in the engine.

the battery was charged and the plane started immediately oil is super clean and supposed to be 300 hrs smoh , plane seems to have been last flown regularly in 2011 or 2012.

I parted out classic cars for years, my friends father parted planes and did quite well but he does jets now.

What's it worth as a part out? It's got a low time engine good for a vans RV or something after corrosion check and a good new 1 piece windshield at the very least.

I've seen Some nice mooney's even in the $30k range This just seemed like a good local deal at first , I was ready to run away, but my mooney buddy still thinks its a good purchase. Figured he knew more than me he owns one and has redone it top to bottom,

That's why I figured Id ask here first too, maybe I was missing something.

[Turbo69bird]

There is no Mooney on this earth that qualifies as a low cost time builder. Low budget means go look for a fixed gear fixed prop much simpler aircraft.

ok so I've got to ask why a mooney doesn't qualify as a low cost time builder. Keep in mind Im a neewbie.

I get that annuals will be more expensive due to complex but aside from that?

[Turbo69bird]

Btw. I do appreciate the responses and the honesty.

Part of the reason Im thinking of parting it out Is another thread where a guy has corrosion, it was stated these planes are all worth more I parts than as planes. (Lightbulb)

Then figured if I good get some hours in it on top of that its a win win!

[Marauder]

ok so I've got to ask why a mooney doesn't qualify as a low cost time builder. Keep in mind Im a neewbie.

I get that annuals will be more expensive due to complex but aside from that?

I personally would question the overall reliability of the plane. If there are that many obvious things that the owner has not kept up with, what about all the ones you can't see? Flying is inherently unforgiving. Why risk flying in a plane that has this many obvious issues?

Let me give you an example. The plane has a low time engine. Considering how much routine maintenance stuff hasn't been done, would you trust that 20 year old oil lines weren't reused?

If the plane hasn't been used much, once you start "building time" in it, all those things start catching up...

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[scottfromiowa]

There is no such thing ass a low cost time builder....airplane.

If you are into boats and cars, awesome. I would stick with that and rent....or enter the moneypit of aircraft ownership.

[scottfromiowa]

I have first dibs on a right flap when you part it out...

[Cruiser]

It sounds like you have a place and equipment to work on the plane. 

 

If you have an A&P IA to work with you and you have the time to invest I would rather see the plane restored than parted out.

 

So at what price for this plane is it going to make you feel it is a worthwhile deal?

You can buy some really nice "time builders" out there for under $20k,

[KSMooniac]

It sounds like you have a place and equipment to work on the plane. 

 

If you have an A&P IA to work with you and you have the time to invest I would rather see the plane restored than parted out.

 

So at what price for this plane is it going to make you feel it is a worthwhile deal?

You can buy some really nice "time builders" out there for under $20k,

 

Yes, this.  

 

Sounds like you're mechanically inclined, and would like to do a lot of things yourself.  I presume you're not a licensed A&P mechanic, but if you have a friend that is AND is willing to work with you (ie you do all of the work, and consult with him along the way) it might be a feasible situation for you.  You will not come out ahead, but could have an airworthy plane in exchange for a lot of your labor that is worth $0/hour.  If the airframe is not corroded (both aluminum and steel parts) I agree with Tom that it would be great to see it restored and flying.  You would learn a lot in the process, and could possibly parlay the experience into an A&P license if you wish.

 

Presuming the airframe is solid, the engine is the next issue because it might have clean oil and great compressions now, but there could already be cam & lifter corrosion/pitting from sitting and you'll find yourself needing an overhaul in 6-12 months of regular flying.  Even if you do most of the overhaul work (under supervision) you'll be in to that task for $15k easy.  The tank work is tedious and difficult, but theoretically you could strip and seal the tanks under supervision.  (Paying an expert to do it right is $8k+ for both sides, so judge for yourself how tedious that job is!)  Moving inside the plane, the gyros will likely need work after sitting for years since the grease settles out and then wear accelerates.  Avionics... well, you can try to make do as-is, or scavenge newer take-out avionics on a budget.  Sky is the limit here.  The interior can be made nice with a lot of sweat equity and perhaps a couple thousand dollars in materials.

 

Regarding parting out an older Mooney... some of it might be easy to sell, but you'll need to have space to store it and time to remove and catalog things as well as answer questions and ship things out.  There have been a couple cases on here of vintage Mooneys with spar corrosion that led to scrap.  I'm not sure what the hull value of them might have been, but a wing swap might cost $10k or more and it is hard to spend that kind of money on a $30k or $40k plane.  Gear doors, hail-free control surfaces, etc are the quick sellers, but the rest takes a lot of time.

[chrisk]

In general, I think it is best to buy something that has been flying often and with the upgrades you might want.    And I know a lot of folks are telling you to run away.   You should also consider this excellent advice from others that have been in this situation.

 

But if your happy with the plane as is, it may be worth considering.   The engine is a risk, for lack of use.  Old radios, interior, and paint are some what subjective.  I'd be hard pressed to give an opinion without seeing it.  If the interior was serviceable.   If the radios are digital.  If the plane was "in annual" from a well know Mooney Service Center.   And if it was priced right, I might take a chance. 

 

Lets see some pictures.

[scottfromiowa]

Sirens all. You stated what you are into (Boats and cars) ask your friend details on $ to get a plane back in safe reliable flying shape. All the talk about "saving" vintage airframes is a bunch of B.S. There is a glut of old not flown vintage Mooney's that should/could service those that ARE flying. WAY to much of a deal is made about parting out a plane that is unloved. Go in with both eyes AND wallet WIDE OPEN. O.K., I have done my part to keep you off the rocks....Siren on.

[DaV8or]

There is no such thing ass a low cost time builder....airplane.

If you are into boats and cars, awesome. I would stick with that and rent....or enter the moneypit of aircraft ownership.

 

I agree with Scott. The plane you describe is a huge expensive project. I would only attempt it if -

 

• You really want a long restoration project where you do all the work.
• You love vintage Es and want to make this one your own custom one.
• The airplane has no corrosion anywhere.
• You get it for $5000 or less.
• You have a Mooney expert pre buy it.

If you're already into boats and race cars, skip it unless you want to give one of those up. It's not about money, it's about the amount of personal time you will sink into this thing. I suggest renting too. If you really want to own, buy one that is already up to snuff and flying. You will lose money on project. One only takes on this project as a labor of love. A fixed gear, fixed prop plane will be cheaper to own and operate. If it's a super low annual budget, maybe a Cherokee 140 or Piper Tomahawk.

[Turbo69bird]

I personally would question the overall reliability of the plane. If there are that many obvious things that the owner has not kept up with, what about all the ones you can't see? Flying is inherently unforgiving. Why risk flying in a plane that has this many obvious issues?

Let me give you an example. The plane has a low time engine. Considering how much routine maintenance stuff hasn't been done, would you trust that 20 year old oil lines weren't reused?

If the plane hasn't been used much, once you start "building time" in it, all those things start catching up...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Absolutely agree, we see that a lot with boats guys change the engine, cheap out on hoses and things break when they start running it. Can pull over and bobble around in a boat not in a plane. 100% agreed

Playing devils advocate here a little:

I will say everything firewall forward looks new and he stated he changed it all at the same time. Id of course want to verify that during the pre buy. (If I go that far)

What was told to me was that he wasn't concerned about the avionics it all worked, he was the only one who flew it and the paint and interior didn't bother him and his health was failing so he let it go.. Parts of the plane are still nice and shiny, it just looks like that 80s clear coat failed as it did on so many cars.( Probably should have used Imron or single stage)He did the mechanicals for obvious reasons but then got sick and couldn't fly anymore. Also says he Kept up on the engine/corrosion in hopes he could fly in the future but has realized that's just not going to happen.

[Cruiser]

Your biggest problem will be getting him to realize what it is worth, not what he thinks it should sell for.............

[Turbo69bird]

Here's the thing, I've built cars, here's my 69 firebird 960 hp! All 100% self designed and built every nut, every bolt,every weld!

http://www.mayhemturbo.com

So I'm not afraid of putting a little elbow grease into it.

I'm kind of partial to turbo- anything so this turbocharged mooney is kind of a nice fit.

However, I don't like to spend stupid money just to burn it. If I found the right parts inexpensively. I might just fix it up. I do have A&Ps I could work with on it. I don't have my own hangar but I am sure I could bunk w someone at my airport for a little cash.

My big concern is having a plane that's safe.

A freind of mine has a Cherokee 140 for sale but , I'm not sure that's me.

I rode CR500s, race 1000 hp cars, most pictures of my boats there's no water touching the hull because it's flying through the air. I like the mooney's because they get their fast , sip fuel and look good doing it.

I'm much more of a cautious person in a plane than anything else, but the turbocharged mooney's got a bit of a cool factor. IMO Your not going to see 25 of those lined up at a fly in and that's what initially attracted me to it.

So if I found it was rebuild able things weren't all as bad as they seemed Id at least have something a little interesting.

[N33GG]

What the heck, go for it! Nobody here ever thought of getting an old Mooney as a low cost time builder. And nobody here ever thought about parting out a plane for more money than you paid for it. Brilliant! Everybody here is just envious that you found this great deal and we didn't.

[Turbo69bird]

What the heck, go for it! Nobody here ever thought of getting an old Mooney as a low cost time builder. And nobody here ever thought about parting out a plane for more money than you paid for it. Brilliant! Everybody here is just envious that you found this great deal and we didn't.

Well that was constructive.

First of all not everyone here was completely negative on it. Some said restore it, some said part it out. Some said run your azz off. I'm listening to all input.

I spent years as a moderator on a website, Ive read every post in my sections, so I've seen the naysayers with cars and boats and Ive seen the guys who dig in and make money and who make great pieces out of what some people scoffed at.

I've also seen guys who bought stupid projects and regretted it dearly.

I'm trying to figure out which this is, if it's is worth getting involved in at all and at what price does it become worth it.

If I can get it for $2000 your saying it's not worth buying a possible low time 200 hp fuel injected engine? The cores worth that.

How about $5000?

How about $10,000.?

I'm not sure where it will end up, but I'm sure there's some number where just about anyone on this site would buy it to either take a chance or part it out and feel comfortable.

This was a "what's it worth" thread after all.

I actually appreciate all of your input very much, even this... Because it shows me just how insane you think someone would have to be to get involved, but others may not agree. Listening to all of it, is what makes this America and what makes this a great country.

[smccray]

The cheap E models will run $50K.  The expensive E models will be more like $20K.

 

Do it if you want to, but realize you're not buying an airplane, you're buying a project that might fly after you dump enough time and $ into it.

[scottfromiowa]

You should have titled the thread...what will this really cost me?

[Cruiser]

You guys are not listening to the OP.

 

It sounds like the plane can fly tomorrow. The question is how much money is it going to take to keep it flying.

[scottfromiowa]

The cheap E models will run $50K.  The expensive E models will be more like $20K.

 

Do it if you want to, but realize you're not buying an airplane, you're buying a project that might fly after you dump enough time and $ into it.

"Cheap" defined as...about $30k if you want decent avionics and something that doesn't break every flight. That is $30k AFTER a $50k buy in.