AOA installation

[DonMuncy]

Has anyone had an AOA indicator installed on their Mooney. What was the approximate cost for installation. In order to compare apples-to-apples, the installation needs to have mounted the sensor outboard of the fuel tank.

Thanks

[M016576]

Has anyone had an AOA indicator installed on their Mooney. What was the approximate cost for installation. In order to compare apples-to-apples, the installation needs to have mounted the sensor outboard of the fuel tank.

Thanks

Erik has one on his rocket. My missile is getting one in a few weeks...,

[DonMuncy]

Maybe Erik will chime in. Do you have any quote (or even estimate) yet.

[Marauder]

Ask Mike (201er).

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[DonMuncy]

I sent a PM to Mike.

Thanks.

[RocketAviator]

Don I had the Alpha unit installed in my Rocket this past April. I don't use it as much as I thought I would I do use it as a double check. About 2k installed and I choose the heated prob option. Can send photos if you like.

[DonMuncy]

Thanks, I would appreciate the photos.

[RocketAviator]

Thanks, I would appreciate the photos.

You got it, will try tomorrow but for sure on Saturday.

[M016576]

Maybe Erik will chime in. Do you have any quote (or even estimate) yet.

~2k installed

Alpha systems ultra led kit w/ heated probe

[M016576]

Don I had the Alpha unit installed in my Rocket this past April. I don't use it as much as I thought I would I do use it as a double check. About 2k installed and I choose the heated prob option. Can send photos if you like.

Out of curiosity- do you think you use it less due to your original training on the ASI / your habit patterns (scan) or because you don't trust the gauge?

Thanks!

[aviatoreb]

Hey Don,

 

I found this old thread.

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/8940-what-aoa-indicators-are-available/

 

I have the alpha systems ultra with all the bells and whistles.  The more of it you install the more time to install.  With the heated probe, and then also wired to your audio panel it makes a superior system.  I think I was ~3k all in, but I forget.  It required some flight testing to calibrate so that the stall indicated occurs actually at your specific airplane's stall.  

 

I really really like it.  Unlike rocketavatar, I fly it every single flight and I consider it to be a game-changer piece of equipment:

 

-When on a landing approach, I fly airspeed down to about 90kts on long final then I seem to naturally transition to AOA and I fly AOA there all the way to wheels down.  Your landing speeds change significantly with weight - I am finding I have been nailing my landing speeds, so better landings, immediately and following the installation.  I was compulsively buffering my landing speeds with "a few extra knots" just in case before I got the AOA.

 

-I love the voice annunciator for many reasons.  1) It is very reasuring to hear her say "getting slow" as I am on the last amber dot just as I am approaching the numbers right before flare- that is right where I need to be and the voice annunciator allows me to focus outside the airplane down the runway.  If I hear that voice before that point, I know I need to pitch down, and the confidence that she is there to slap me on the back of the head if I get slow early is very reassuring.  Even more so, if I were to ever get slow in the pattern, say in the dreaded base to final turn, then I find it reassuring that there is a voice in my ear that would say "getting slow" and wake me up that I am nearing the flight envelope uninintentionally.  Likewise, I have been working on commercial maneuvers lately - it is reassuring to fly AOA instead of airspeed in precision engine out landing practice.

-For sure if I ever have a real engine out emergency I would be much more inclined to fly AOA than airspeed.

-Actually I fly both - I have the AOA indicator immediately to the left of my airspeed indicator - so I can see both with one eye-full.

-The voice annunciator acts as an ice-early warning system as it turns out.  The pointiest potrusions of your airplane will be the first to get any ice - the AOA sensor is pretty pointy.  More so than your wings.  When covered in ice the AOA thinks you have stalled and the voice annunciator warns you getting slow - this tells me in cruise that I am in ice and time to do something asap. At that point I turn on my AOA heated probe. (Otherwise I would have to pull the breaker since that would be the only other way to get her to shut up!)  It sounds funny but in light ice in a tks airplane it may not be so obvious sometimes that you are in ice since you cannot see anything on your airplane and I think it is useful to have a probe tell me.

 

-seriously, for warning of impending stall (yes, a steep slow turn in the pattern sheds more lift than you might expect - I knew this in theory but it is very very interesting to see on an instrument in practice - so don't turn steep when slow in the pattern), for nailing my landings at all weights, for ice warning, I have found it to be a superb addition.  In fact, I would most definitely install it in any and every airplane I might ever own in the future - but I am not selling anytime soon.

[RocketAviator]

Out of curiosity- do you think you use it less due to your original training on the ASI / your habit patterns (scan) or because you don't trust the gauge?

Thanks!

We'll after reading Erik's / aviatoreb post I am completely embarrassed, but to answer your question I am sure it is due to my shortcomings from not transitioning to the AOA and holding on to my old school training, and I do trust it!

I heard Mike Bush say on one of his LOP videos we supposedly have a great tendency to fall back on what we learned first.

Like Erik I like and hear Getting Slow.... Then Too Slow on every landing. I know I am still landing faster than I have to..my bad, no excuse as I have the right equipment on board, just the I/O in the pilot seat that has the issue!

Erik has unknowingly created a challenge for me to use my AOA... Heck that is a big deal for me for instance even with a full glass panel I continually find myself looking at the steam gauge ASI and ALT...

Thanks Erik / aviatoreb

This is a great site, I never log on I don't learn something or get great thought provoking issues to ponder!

Fly safe

Rocket On

[aviatoreb]

We'll after reading Erik's / aviatoreb post I am completely embarrassed, but to answer your question I am sure it is due to my shortcomings from not transitioning to the AOA and holding on to my old school training, and I do trust it!

I heard Mike Bush say on one of his LOP videos we supposedly have a great tendency to fall back on what we learned first.

Like Erik I like and hear Getting Slow.... Then Too Slow on every landing. I know I am still landing faster than I have to..my bad, no excuse as I have the right equipment on board, just the I/O in the pilot seat that has the issue!

Erik has unknowingly created a challenge for me to use my AOA... Heck that is a big deal for me for instance even with a full glass panel I continually find myself looking at the steam gauge ASI and ALT...

Thanks Erik / aviatoreb

This is a great site, I never log on I don't learn something or get great thought provoking issues to ponder!

Fly safe

Rocket On

 

Hi RocketAviator,  :-)  My pleasure.  Defn trust the device.  You know the theory.  These things really work - not just as good as your airspeed indicator, but better than your airspeed indicator.

One more thing I didn't say in my write-up above.  I like the glowing lights of the device that change from amber when slightly fast, to blue when spot on speed (for over the numbers or maybe for just beginning flare) to the reds when you are slow enough to stall (I stall when two of the red lights have gone out after blue), but this all happens within seconds once flare has begun.  What I like about the lights versus the airspeed indicator, is I can see the lights basic colors transitioning in my peripheral vision while looking down the runway which is where your eyes should be during the flare.  So you get to see inside and outside the airplane while looking outside when using these lights, whereas with airspeed indicator you would have to choose.

[Marauder]

You guys should have someone with you that can make a video of one working in a Mooney. I would love to see how it behaves in the pattern. I am always cautious about the base to final turn. I'm sure we all have been flown on one of those days where a downwind to upwind crossing wind has us tightening the turn to final. As a result, I always tend to carry more speed than I need.

I often wondered how much speed is really required to fly it safely.

[DonMuncy]

It is consoling to see several guys like me who land too fast and would likely benefit from an AOA. I have always assumed that the pilots who land on speed and don't seem to worry about those base to final turns are just a lot better pilots than I am. That is probably true. I have a lot of admiration for those of you who have the ability to feel (or discern from the ASI) how close they are to a stall.

[carusoam]

Anyone have anything on the BK manufactured device?

From the picture, I think, they mount up by the windshield. Looking outside, it will be in view...

Now, if I can have my ASI mounted up there as well.....(belt and suspenders)

Best regards,

-a-

Mike must be busy today!!!

[carusoam]

This is what I was asking opinions about...

http://www.bendixking.com/Products/Flight-Controls-Indicators/Indicators/KLR-10

Might be experimental only....

Best regards,

-a-

[RocketAviator]

You guys should have someone with you that can make a video of one working in a Mooney. I would love to see how it behaves in the pattern. I am always cautious about the base to final turn. I'm sure we all have been flown on one of those days where a downwind to upwind crossing wind has us tightening the turn to final. As a result, I always tend to carry more speed than I need.

I often wondered how much speed is really required to fly it safely.

I dont have a GoPro but let me see what I can come up with this weekend.  Maybe get a buddy to ride alone and phone video the AOA during a landing.  No promises but I will surly try and see what I can come up with.

[PTK]

It is consoling to see several guys like me who land too fast and would likely benefit from an AOA. I have always assumed that the pilots who land on speed and don't seem to worry about those base to final turns are just a lot better pilots than I am. That is probably true. I have a lot of admiration for those of you who have the ability to feel (or discern from the ASI) how close they are to a stall.

If a pilot, for whatever reason, can't control AS how is adding another instrument on the panel i.e. an AOA indicator going to help him?

If a pilot stares at his ASI but doesn't know how to react to the information, how is another instrument going to help him?

I fail to see why such a pilot instead of going on a spending spree for an AOA indicator will not consider spending some of that money on some stick and rudder skills.

A few months ago we saw in San Fransisco what can happen when the ASI is ignored. No overshooting base to final turn. Straight in approach...with an AOA ind.

[David Mazer]

For what it's worth, I went a different route and I am very heppy with it.  My investment is $400 for the unit and I installed it with an IA looking over my shoulder.  The guy that makes it is still trying to get the blanket paperwork that Alpha Systems has but he expects it and so do I.  Here is the link to my thread on the subject.

 

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/10120-cya-100-aoa/

 

Oh, and in the intervening time since installation, I've had no problems.  It works great and, with it right on the glare shield, it is easy to see during approach and flare.  I recently easily made a 1500 ft turn off a 2500 ft runway.  I couldn't (really wouldn't) come in slow enough before the AOA was installed to do that.  This opens up an entire new category of airport for me.

[Marauder]

Pete -- the way I understand how the AoA works is to present meaningful indications that your current flight envelope is or is not leading up to a critical angle conducive to a stall situation. The problem with the ASI is that it requires you to understand numerically what that stall speed is relative to your bank angle.

If you are doing 90 KIAS on base and realize you are overshooting final, how much bank will cause you to stall? I think the AoA presents that information in a "hey stupid, you are too steep" manner. Most of us without AoA indicators tend to carry more speed or do the prudent thing and go around.

I personally am non committal on the benefits -- hence my request to see one in actual action. I have seen the Yeager video where he basically says real pilots don't need them. But I also have seen the accident stats that confirms that stall/spin accidents happen. And if it can be set up to use my wife's actual nagging voice to say "hey stupid, you're going to get us killed", it would get my attention

[PTK]

Hi Chris. It was great to see you at LNS. Nice turnout.

I'm of the opinion that in the small envelope on approach or in the pattern there's nothing an AOA ind can tell me that the ASI doesn't.

And I agree with you. If for whatever reason it looks like the envelope bounds will be violated go around!

Stall spin accidents happen because the airplane was allowed to stray uncoordinated, AS was allowed to decay and the pilot forced it bent on salvaging the landing.

No where in the FAR's does it say that every approach must terminate to a landing!

[David Mazer]

Marauder, here is a link to a poorly filmed video of the CYA-100 but it gives you the idea.

 

 

For those out there that believe the AIS gives the pilot the same usable information as the AOA, IMHO, haven't flown with an AOA.  The conservative factor I carried before the AOA really meant I wasn't able to land as slowly, a safety issue right there, and that my base to final turns were always shallower than they needed to be.  We have been flying for a century now without AOAs but that doesn't mean we should if we don't have to.

[Marauder]

Thanks David. I wonder if any videos exist that show internal and external views during usage. From the video you provided, it looks like he was pretty close to stall speed before it hit the LED hit bottom of the gauge. I'm curious what it looks like during a normal landing configuration.

[bnicolette]

I am on the fence as to the merits of the AOA actually improving the accident stats.  This airplane (from a company I used to fly for) not only had an AOA but also a stick pusher and none of it helped.  

 

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20051228-0

 

I do see the merits in the AOA for fine tuning the aircraft approach/climb speeds though.