DonMuncy Posted November 18, 2013 Report Posted November 18, 2013 I just started reading the newest Flying magazine. They have an article on ADS-B. The author opines that: (1) The rules regarding the necessity and requirements for having ADS-B installed by 2020 are "set" and not going to change. (I think he may be correct). (2) That prices are probably as low as they are going to get. (I have my doubts about this). (3) The rush to get all the units installed as it gets close to 2020 will cause installation delays. (Very likely if one waits too long). Their conclusion is you ought to pull the trigger and reap the benefits now. I really do not want to buy a portable unit now and have to pay again for a panel mount later. I don't mind buying now, but worry about potential price reductions or even possibly improvements or add-ons to the units between now and 2020. Has anyone done any shopping for panel units. Are the panel units going to feed to my 430 or could they be sent to an IPad. What is everyone else thinking.
Marauder Posted November 18, 2013 Report Posted November 18, 2013 And the author probably didn't disclose that he/she owns a lot of stocks in avionics companies
Marauder Posted November 18, 2013 Report Posted November 18, 2013 Don -- I have been following the ADS-B situation closely. The requirements will most likely not change, but what you will have available in the form of hardware will change. I would not be in a rush to buy a panel mounted solution unless you are certain you will not be updating or upgrading radios. Let me give you an example in my situation. The only ADS-B panel mounted hardware (of the big players) that is available is the GDL-88. The 88 will display on the 750/650 GTN series with maximum capability. It will display on the 530/430 but with limitations. Also, at this point it will not display on the G500/G600 though a rumor is a software package will be released soon to make this happen. The 88 will not display on the Aspen Avionics PFD/MFD. And considering the relationship between these companies, I don't expect it will ever. Since I am an Aspen Evolution 2000 owner, it makes no sense for me to buy a GDL-88 and try to read traffic and weather info on my GTN 650. So I am in the wait mode for either the Aspen solution or someone else's that will display on the Aspen. At some point I will be upgrading my second radio. The forerunner replacement radio for me will be the Bendix King 770 that will work with Aspen hardware (they are co-developing solutions). Another form of compliance is just buying an ES transponder and be done with it. The mandate only requires the "out" signal. The "in" signal is being provided as an enticement to get people to make the jump. As for portables, I have been struggling with this for a while. In fact, I decided not to wait any longer and have a GDL-39 on order. I will be able to get weather and limited traffic. If the panel mounted ADS-B stuff doesn't get sorted out to my liking, I will just buy a squitter transponder and enjoy the "in" piece on my iPad. 1
Marauder Posted November 18, 2013 Report Posted November 18, 2013 I thought so. That is both good and bad as far as portable ADS-B hardware is concerned, in my opinion. On the low end it is bad because the really cheap UAT receivers aren't an option for you but on the high end the Stratus 2 is a pretty darn good deal at, what, $900? It will probably always have a residual value of half of that on eBay. Why not just go ahead and buy one and see if it meets your "in" needs? You might decide that it does and then you only have to worry about installing "out" box. Or you can sell it in a couple of years and get much of your money back. That's my strategy at this point. The panel mounted stuff is really expensive. I don't have the GDL-88 quote anymore but I thought it came in close to $6k installed. If it doesn't come down a bit, I will probably go with an ES transponder and use the portable solution.
M016576 Posted November 18, 2013 Report Posted November 18, 2013 What about this new GA revitalization legislation that just passed.... I'm willing to let that simmer for a year or two, in the off chance that it allows for cheaper ads-b panel options for part 91, rather than spend 10k on a panel mount that a $800 dollar unit will display on an ipad/aera that actually costs about 50 bucks to make. I did buy a GDL-39 on EBay for $500 bucks, though. I've been missing my XM service, and took a gamble that the gdl-39 will work out for me....
FlyDave Posted November 18, 2013 Report Posted November 18, 2013 I got a GDL-39 a few weeks ago.So far it seems fine. I've had good reception (flew to LA last weekend and seemed to have good reception with data displayed on my iPad mini. As I stated in an earlier post. I'm probably going to buy a Garmin 695 or 696 and panel mount that for all the weather and traffic. I'll upgrade my GTX-330 to ES so I get traffic everywhere. I personally prefer the weather displayed on a panel mount and the 695/696 is a great size. It will display all the weather and traffic from the GDL-39 (via cable) that Garmin Pilot will display on the iPad. Oh, and when the FAA implements the appropriate parts of the GA revitalization act, I'll probably sell all this crap and install a Dynon EFIS/comm/transponder/ADS-B, etc... for less than $10K. If you haven't looked at the Dynon Skyview system and pricing yet, you really need to - it LOOKS slicker than snot on a doorknob - especially for the money they are charging! 1
PTK Posted November 18, 2013 Report Posted November 18, 2013 -it LOOKS slicker than snot on a doorknob - especially for the money they are charging! That slick? Now, that is slick!
N601RX Posted November 18, 2013 Report Posted November 18, 2013 I got a GDL-39 a few weeks ago.So far it seems fine. I've had good reception (flew to LA last weekend and seemed to have good reception with data displayed on my iPad mini. As I stated in an earlier post. I'm probably going to buy a Garmin 695 or 696 and panel mount that for all the weather and traffic. I'll upgrade my GTX-330 to ES so I get traffic everywhere. I personally prefer the weather displayed on a panel mount and the 695/696 is a great size. It will display all the weather and traffic from the GDL-39 (via cable) that Garmin Pilot will display on the iPad. Oh, and when the FAA implements the appropriate parts of the GA revitalization act, I'll probably sell all this crap and install a Dynon EFIS/comm/transponder/ADS-B, etc... for less than $10K. If you haven't looked at the Dynon Skyview system and pricing yet, you really need to - it LOOKS slicker than snot on a doorknob - especially for the money they are charging! Unfortunately there is some language in the Ga revitalization act that limits it to planes weighing #2700 or less. It looks like us F and newer owners may be out of luck if nothing changes.
Bob - S50 Posted November 18, 2013 Report Posted November 18, 2013 I just started reading the newest Flying magazine. They have an article on ADS-B. The author opines that: (1) The rules regarding the necessity and requirements for having ADS-B installed by 2020 are "set" and not going to change. (I think he may be correct). (2) That prices are probably as low as they are going to get. (I have my doubts about this). (3) The rush to get all the units installed as it gets close to 2020 will cause installation delays. (Very likely if one waits too long). Their conclusion is you ought to pull the trigger and reap the benefits now. I really do not want to buy a portable unit now and have to pay again for a panel mount later. I don't mind buying now, but worry about potential price reductions or even possibly improvements or add-ons to the units between now and 2020. Has anyone done any shopping for panel units. Are the panel units going to feed to my 430 or could they be sent to an IPad. What is everyone else thinking. As someone mentioned, only the 'out' portion is required. As far as I know, there is no portable out solution, it has to be a panel mount. The best plan I've read is to get the cheapest 'out' solution possible and use a portable 'in'. The portable in will be much cheaper than the panel mount in and will make it less expensive to upgrade as better equipment becomes available. Either way, you probably know you will need a WAAS GPS for the out portion. Since we currently have a KT76A, my plan (if my partners agree with me) is to wait until it dies or we get close to 2020. Unless something better comes along I would buy the Trig TT31 for $2900. If we want ADS-B in, we can buy a portable receiver and wirelessly connect it to our tablets. Bob
John Pleisse Posted November 18, 2013 Report Posted November 18, 2013 My avionics technician mentioned two things: 1) TIS-B / ADS-R is a factor and should be considered when buying 2) In his opinion (reputable shop), permanent or panel mounted boxes are a good bet because they will be over built to accommodate changes in the ATC ADS-B system with only software upgrades.
FlyDave Posted November 18, 2013 Report Posted November 18, 2013 Unfortunately there is some language in the Ga revitalization act that limits it to planes weighing #2700 or less. It looks like us F and newer owners may be out of luck if nothing changes. Where did you find this 2700# restriction? I looked though the doc I have doc I have (Part.23.Reorganization.ARC.FINAL.Report.pdf) and could not find a reference to this weight restriction.
FlyDave Posted November 18, 2013 Report Posted November 18, 2013 Where did you find this 2700# restriction? I looked though the doc I have doc I have (Part.23.Reorganization.ARC.FINAL.Report.pdf) and could not find a reference to this weight restriction. Never mind - I just found it in that doc. The text is in a non-searchable image. That SUCKS! 40 freaking pounds?
N601RX Posted November 18, 2013 Report Posted November 18, 2013 The wording of it isn't very clear. "weighs not more than 2700 lbs," It doesn't say gross weight or empty weight, it just says weighs. Most of the Mooneys of our vintage weighs around 1700. If it is gross weight it is going to leave out a lot of Mooneys and pretty much all the Beech products.
Bob - S50 Posted November 18, 2013 Report Posted November 18, 2013 Bob, You and I are of the same mindset. See the link below, though, for a portable ADS-B "out" solution that has already made it to market. Jim http://www.skyguardtwx.com Nice!
Fly By Night Posted November 18, 2013 Report Posted November 18, 2013 I got a GDL-39 a few weeks ago.So far it seems fine. I've had good reception (flew to LA last weekend and seemed to have good reception with data displayed on my iPad mini. As I stated in an earlier post. I'm probably going to buy a Garmin 695 or 696 and panel mount that for all the weather and traffic. I'll upgrade my GTX-330 to ES so I get traffic everywhere. I personally prefer the weather displayed on a panel mount and the 695/696 is a great size. It will display all the weather and traffic from the GDL-39 (via cable) that Garmin Pilot will display on the iPad. Oh, and when the FAA implements the appropriate parts of the GA revitalization act, I'll probably sell all this crap and install a Dynon EFIS/comm/transponder/ADS-B, etc... for less than $10K. If you haven't looked at the Dynon Skyview system and pricing yet, you really need to - it LOOKS slicker than snot on a doorknob - especially for the money they are charging!
FlyDave Posted November 18, 2013 Report Posted November 18, 2013 The wording of it isn't very clear. "weighs not more than 2700 lbs," It doesn't say gross weight or empty weight, it just says weighs. Most of the Mooneys of our vintage weighs around 1700. If it is gross weight it is going to leave out a lot of Mooneys and pretty much all the Beech products. Yeah - I noted that as well - not MTOW. My empty weight is well under 2700 lbs. I wonder if they're just leaving that up to interpretation. I can take off at 2700 lbs. without a problem. In fact I almost always take off at or under 2700 lbs.
N601RX Posted November 18, 2013 Report Posted November 18, 2013 The appendix that contains this is only a draft document and may change. I assume there will be a commit period before it is finalized.
Fly By Night Posted November 18, 2013 Report Posted November 18, 2013 Reply challenged! Regarding traffic, as I understand it if you do not have 978 UAT ADSB out installed, you will only receive TIS B on your portable unit that has been transmitted to an aircraft with 978 out that is in the local area, and it will be restricted to that aircrafts "Hockey Puck". I have had the GDL88 for a couple of months and it works as advertised, with the exception that for the GNS530/430 traffic does not show on any Map page, only on a discreet "Traffic" page, Garmin assures me that they are working a solution.
Marauder Posted November 18, 2013 Report Posted November 18, 2013 Reply challenged! Regarding traffic, as I understand it if you do not have 978 UAT ADSB out installed, you will only receive TIS B on your portable unit that has been transmitted to an aircraft with 978 out that is in the local area, and it will be restricted to that aircrafts "Hockey Puck". I have had the GDL88 for a couple of months and it works as advertised, with the exception that for the GNS530/430 traffic does not show on any Map page, only on a discreet "Traffic" page, Garmin assures me that they are working a solution. Since you have it hooked up to a GNS series, do you know what the difference is, weather wise, what is displayed on the GNS versus the GTN series? Here is the excerpt from the Garmin site: DISPLAY TIS-B Traffic FIS-B Weather TargetTrend™ Surf GTN Series 60 targets* Yes Yes Yes GNS WAAS Series 8 targets** NEXRAD, METARs, TAFs No No *Receives up to 30 airborne and 30 ground traffic targets **TIS-A Symbology Future support is planned for G1000 platforms. Is the weather difference you don't see airmets, sigmets and lightning?
Danb Posted November 18, 2013 Report Posted November 18, 2013 I bought a Stratus 2 when it came out to see what I could derive from it, I so far kept my xm but am flying less and considering dropping the subs. The best thing is the stratus display for use if you need the panel depicted seems really close to my glass...not sure re the future will stay tuned
Jamie Posted November 18, 2013 Report Posted November 18, 2013 Why isn't there a home brew ADS-B receiver yet? How hard can it be? $900 seems to be the current price point, plus or minus a little. Is it really that hard to receive and decode the data?
N601RX Posted November 19, 2013 Report Posted November 19, 2013 Why isn't there a home brew ADS-B receiver yet? How hard can it be? $900 seems to be the current price point, plus or minus a little. Is it really that hard to receive and decode the data? I've played around with it quite a bit with a software defined radio. The extended Squitter on 1090 is pretty easy to demodulate and decode. The UAT datalink on 978 is a bit more involved. Its FSK modulated and the protocol is well documentation. I have it receiving and converting the data into 1's and 0's but never started on parsing it out. Unfortunately the SDR I'm using is about $60K so its not in a home brewers budget. There are some USB SDR that you can get online for under 20 bucks that will pick up the signal. Google RTL Software Defined Radio.
1964-M20E Posted November 20, 2013 Report Posted November 20, 2013 Since you have it hooked up to a GNS series, do you know what the difference is, weather wise, what is displayed on the GNS versus the GTN series? Here is the excerpt from the Garmin site: DISPLAY TIS-B Traffic FIS-B Weather TargetTrend™ Surf GTN Series 60 targets* Yes Yes Yes GNS WAAS Series 8 targets** NEXRAD, METARs, TAFs No No *Receives up to 30 airborne and 30 ground traffic targets **TIS-A Symbology Future support is planned for G1000 platforms. Is the weather difference you don't see airmets, sigmets and lightning? Having 60 targets may be nice but at the end of the day I'm only interested in the ones that are within 5 miles and 1000 feet of me. After that it is just cluttering the screen. I do not have ADS-B out in my plane yet but as the rule stands I will have it in the next 6 years. Just waiting to see how ti plays out.
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