aviatoreb Posted November 15, 2013 Report Posted November 15, 2013 "Congress on Nov. 14 gave final approval to a bill that requires the FAA to streamline the certification methods for smaller general aviation aircraft, advancing an initiative that should reduce the cost of upgrading existing aircraft and bringing new aircraft to market." http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2013/November/14/aircraft-certification-bill-to-reduce-cost-of-flying.aspx?WT.mc_sect=adv&WT.mc_id=131115epilot "...Manufacturers say that a streamlined Part 23 will reduce certification costs and thus the price of new aircraft. The changes should also reduce the certification cost and price of modifications of all types from avionics to airbags and seats to restraints, making it more affordable for owners to install modern safety equipment in older aircraft. .." So can I get airbag seatbelts now? (Soon?) And the avidyne digital autopilot with upset recovery...and (eventually) autoland for my nonpilot wife's peace of mind?
Jamie Posted November 15, 2013 Report Posted November 15, 2013 I just spent 5 minutes trying to do a comparison between experimental stuff (dynon) and someone else with certified equivelents. I don't know the stuff very well, so wasn't able to come up with anything quickly, but the dynon prices are amazing. What I'd like to see (and it may not exist) are products that are EXACTLY THE SAME, but cost more for the certified version. Suggestions? I'm trying to get an idea of the current premium this part 23 stuff causes.
Sabremech Posted November 15, 2013 Report Posted November 15, 2013 The most recent example I can share of an equivalent product is between an Stec and Trutrack autopilot. An Stec (certified) with heading and altitude hold is about 13k not installed. A Trutrack (non certified) with heading and altitude hold is about 3k not installed. David
Jamie Posted November 15, 2013 Report Posted November 15, 2013 wow. Just.. wow. There's all kinds of stuff I'd add to my plane at the $3k price point that isn't happening at $13k. Assuming most of that price difference goes to help the manufacturer recoupe the cost of certification, they should be happier to sell more widgets at $3k than at $13k. I hope... Because the other thing that could happen is for the manufactuer's cost to go down, prices stay the same, and their profit goes up.
N601RX Posted November 15, 2013 Report Posted November 15, 2013 You should be able to compare prices on some of the garmin stuff. They makes both certified and non certified glass panels. I suspect they are largely the same other than the front plate. They had the certified stuff first and it wouldn't make any sense for them to start over with a clean slate design on a low volume product.
aviatoreb Posted November 15, 2013 Author Report Posted November 15, 2013 You should be able to compare prices on some of the garmin stuff. They makes both certified and non certified glass panels. I suspect they are largely the same other than the front plate. They had the certified stuff first and it wouldn't make any sense for them to start over with a clean slate design on a low volume product. This one almost makes me laugh at how out of whack prices are between certified and noncertified stuff - and how we simply cannot access some of the excellent equipment that established companies like Garmin can and do produce: A svt efis with a "free" autopilot: http://www.eaa.org/news/2013/2013-03-25_garmin-rolls-out-new-g3x-with-free-autopilot.asp But really - I would install a airbag seatbelt tomorrow if I were allowed but I cannot do it at any price even though currently the amsafe is certified for M20R/S/M/TN. That is just dumb that rules designed for safety keep an airbag seatbelt out of my airplane.
M20F-1968 Posted November 15, 2013 Report Posted November 15, 2013 When I bought my JPI 930 there were "two versions" which were in fact identical, the certified and non-certified. The only difference was that the certified version had the limits and data set by the FAA installed in a way that this info could not be changed. As I recall, there as a significant percentage increase for the certified version. John
tony Posted July 29, 2014 Report Posted July 29, 2014 here is the latest in the saga........ http://www.aviationtoday.com/the-checklist/82726.html?hq_e=el&hq_m=2921535&hq_l=13&hq_v=42b100ec0a#.U9gyjNhOXIU
PaulB Posted July 30, 2014 Report Posted July 30, 2014 here is the latest in the saga........ http://www.aviationtoday.com/the-checklist/82726.html?hq_e=el&hq_m=2921535&hq_l=13&hq_v=42b100ec0a#.U9gyjNhOXIU How is this legal? The law states that they must submit it by Dec 30th 2015 not "get it done when you can." If I decided to make my own rules and not follow the laws I would end up in jail. April 15th? Nah, I'll pay them when I can, 2 years later. The AOPA puts it nicely in their article (linked in the first post): "It’s going to take some time for the FAA to adopt the changes which were developed by industry under the Part 23 Reorganization Aviation Rulemaking Committee. The congressional deadline’s going to help ensure the agency is able to dedicate the resources needed to adopt the changes.” If the FAA doesn't think they can get it done by the deadline they need to "dedicate" more resources or they are breaking the law.
carusoam Posted July 30, 2014 Report Posted July 30, 2014 Sounds like a call to arms... They want to see if you are still interested in the changes... Continue the pressure if you are still interested. Best regards, -a
N601RX Posted July 30, 2014 Report Posted July 30, 2014 "We've been working on this initiative since back in 2007," said Bunce. "The bureaucracy is saying 'we don't care what you [in] congress say, we don't care what the President says, we're going to get it done when we want to get it done and it's going to be two years late.’ And that's exactly what we have to put up with in industry."
1964-M20E Posted July 30, 2014 Report Posted July 30, 2014 How is this legal? The law states that they must submit it by Dec 30th 2015 not "get it done when you can." If I decided to make my own rules and not follow the laws I would end up in jail. April 15th? Nah, I'll pay them when I can, 2 years later. The AOPA puts it nicely in their article (linked in the first post): "It’s going to take some time for the FAA to adopt the changes which were developed by industry under the Part 23 Reorganization Aviation Rulemaking Committee. The congressional deadline’s going to help ensure the agency is able to dedicate the resources needed to adopt the changes.” If the FAA doesn't think they can get it done by the deadline they need to "dedicate" more resources or they are breaking the law. Well if laws are optional for the FAA why then aren’t the FAA rules optional for us. Time to ignore 337s, STCs and move forward.
carusoam Posted July 30, 2014 Report Posted July 30, 2014 ...Says the guy in law enforcement! Could be a good year... legalization of marijuana and the ability to install useful avionics in a plane. I don't recommend either. But having the choice is good. Best regards, -a-
rbridges Posted July 30, 2014 Report Posted July 30, 2014 Could be a good year... legalization of marijuana and the ability to install useful avionics in a plane. -a- double win for stoner avionics installers.
N601RX Posted July 30, 2014 Report Posted July 30, 2014 So what would they think if we told them that we just didn't have the time and manpower to get our annual done this year but should be able to get it done with the next 3 years? 2
DaV8or Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 The pathetic irony of this stupid situation is, the whole act was supposed to be force the FAA to get it act together and reduce the delays in getting things implemented. Their reaction to this act is... "Sorry, the best we can do is two years delayed beyond the deadline." If I were the POTUS, or high ranking congress people, I would be enraged and have a list of names that need to clean out their offices and turn in the keys. Then I would try hiring actual aviation professionals and oh, I don't know, maybe even enthusiasts instead of political favorite appointments. The whole thing is pa_fugging_thetic.
Rhumbline Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 If I were the POTUS, or high ranking congress people, I would be enraged and have a list of names that need to clean out their offices and turn in the keys. ...you're kidding. Laws are for the law abiding. The executive, legislators, jurists and bureaucrats show the color of their stripes.
John Pleisse Posted July 31, 2014 Report Posted July 31, 2014 Look.... I think there are great values for home builts, that hopefully will work for us. The Dynon 6-pack PFD is awesome. But the Dynon wing leveler for $3k is not nearly as stout as an Stec 30. Sorry, there is no fair comparison. Was the old Cobham a bunch of jerks for messing up Stec....and killing the Chelton AP? Absolutely! Was Cobham wrong to ask for $8-10k to re-certify an STC for an autopilot, if you picked one up used? Absolutely. Hopefully, the New Stec (comprised of old principals)will get a handle on things. But comparing Dynon 2 axis AP's to Stec is like comparing "Tinker Toys" to "Tanks". Just my $.02. There's great stuff out there and I am an avionics junkie.....but let's not throw the first piece of $h**t we see into our panels, because it seems like a great deal. Look at the accident rate of home-builts....8.005/ per 100,000. Twice that of Mooneys.
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