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Hi folks, I just got notification from a friend of mine, that Dynon has certified it´s SkyView A/P for vintage Mooneys (C,D,E,F). Dynon Certified | Mooney M20 Series Autopilot System Unfortunately, the early one´s (mine is S/N 341, built in 1964) are not covered. So several questions come up: 1. Can I convert my mooney to newer pushrod´s and that way make it compatible for the dynon installation ? 2. Who has installed this A/P already (for example in a J) and can give a brief evaluation of it ? 3. Do you think that Dynon will extend certification of it´s A/P to the earlier Models (the same way as Garmin did with the GFC500) ? Looking forward to your replies, Thx, highflyer77

Hi Cliff! As a Tech I’ve been stumped by the elevator trim system rigging. It’s vague in the manual. Additional rigging explanation could be helpful for other techs. Setting neutral or adjusting the bungees Inspect the trim tube at rear avionics racks Each time the aft door is open. I’ve had 2-3 customers this year that have needed new trim tubes. This is partially due to the way the new GFC500 autopilots are installed. The new sprocket and motors attach in a way that load the trim tube down and push it into the bulkhead damaging the tube. Fleet wide this will only get worse due to age and more Autopilot installs. Be careful installing interior side walls they are thin. Avionics ships like to use PK screws through doors and sidewalls. Take a look at your storm window. Lots of seals missing. I’ve seen the lips crack and depart etc. good source for carb air boxes? Many are worn out and complete garbage on the C models. Many Fuel injected owners have no clue on the additional fuel filters in the system. Inline after the fuel pump and then the finger screen at the servo. Also on the fuel servo, I’ve found 2 of them this year that still haven’t had the “g” stamped on the center plug. Come on that AD was 18y ago, really? Gear Motor/Actuator explanations and service. Don’t start the airplane or shutdown with the Door open. Changing a main door hing on a J model currently. I don’t know why gear rigging is so hard for people. Use the tools, RTFM, and use common sense. This airplane in the picture was flying for 5y like this. Yoke shaft inspections and cracked yokes on the vintage birds. I’ve found cracked yokes, but never a cracked shaft. Shoulder harness need to be installed on more airplanes. Owners want new Autopilots, avionics, and leather but haven’t pulled the trigger on life saving devices. Hope this helps. Have a great clinic! -Matt

Seems like short and mid bodies don’t typically have it. Long bodies added rudder trim along with the addition of more HP. Some in the middle had STEC yaw damper that doubled as rudder trim. Is there a path to add rudder trim if you don’t have it? Or to change to typical rocker switch with standard Globe rudder trim motor if you had to replace the STEC YD with a GFC500 install?

I sold my F a year ago for ~$80k. It was very similar to this E. Times, tanks, etc. paint might have been a little better and I had an edm930, but I didn’t have a gfc500. This seems a reasonable price if not a little low, but we’ll see how long it takes and if a prebuy reveals anything. The prebuy on my F came up with a missing tooth on the engine side of the engine/starter gear… and that was it. Good luck with the sale!

2 g3x, a Garmin 650, gfc500 AP, remote audio and transponder, installed is north of 100k. I would use what you can as long as you can. I didn’t read all the responses but man I do love the garmin ap!

Isn't there another thread on this exact subject? Like today? Anyway, here was my answer to that this morning... I’d go with the VFlyteAir Arrow. You’ll also get a little glass. It comes in two flavors (you get both). One a decent dual G5 emulation with GFC500 autopilot (I did a little beta testing for the avionics). The other, a decent Aspen emulation. The new PAE A36 Bonanza is also very nice (I assume you don't care about G1000) . When you read the product description just don't think it comes with a G500 or G5 - those are separately purchased add-ons it's compatible with. The default is basic analog.

I'm going to shoot from the hip on this one until I have a chance to review the AFMS for both the GTN and the GFC500. From the GFC500 perspective, the only tone I'm aware of is the disconnect tone. I don't recall any tones for when the A/P changes modes, even for a reversion like this. I've been troubleshooting GFC500 anomalies with a buddy of mine in his Bonanza and there haven't been any tones when his reverts to PIT and ROL from NAV and ALT. For the GTN, I recall reading a caution/note that talked about verifying the approach type annunciation at the FAF to confirm you are getting the guidance you are expecting. In this case it must have changed from LPV / LNAV/VNAV / LNAV+V, which ever WAAS was allowing, to LNAV just prior to the FAF. I believe the AFMS gives the range from the FAF that the box performs this check and downgrades the approach guidance. However, to your question about audio alerts, no, there are none when this happens. I'll do some studying and see if I can find something more definitive.

@PBones my suggestion would be the GTN Xi series navigators, depending on the budget will govern the size (750Xi is more expensive vs 650Xi). I would also try and pair the dual GI275's (ADI and HSI). The only reason I am suggesting this is looking towards the future and knowing the existing autopilot will fail at some point. This would at least set you up for an easier transition to a Garmin autopilot. You would already have everything the GFC500 wants. Also, if you choose a GTN Xi unit you will have the capabilities of Smart Glide for the GFC500 once it is installed. The Garmin GTX 335/345 transponders would be ideal when pairing with the GTN. Panel space will govern if you need the remote mount unit or not. Just make sure whoever the installing shop is knows how to interconnect the Century 41 system. Garmin does a pretty good job of providing an interconnect of the new unit to a legacy autopilot system. However, a lot of the interconnecting depends on the technician doing the job and how they interpret the prints. Last week I helped a very well-known shop in Florida troubleshoot issues with a Century 41 system. Thankfully it was an interconnecting issue and not a box-related problem. Shops that have the knowledge to support this system are rapidly dimensioning over time. That is great that the system got a clean bill of health recently. However, I would plan on saving some money for when the system fails. Who knows what support for Century 41 will look like then.

Let me give another, more CB perspective. My previous plane, a Piper Cherokee, had no autopilot. I discovered that a version of the Century IIB was part of the Type Certificate, so I would not need an STC to install it. I found the parts for one on ebay. My avionics shop tested the head unit for free, I sent the servo to be overhauled by Autopilots Central in Tulsa, and had it installed. Total cost, about 8 years ago, was $5k all in. Despite the bad rap, that autopilot worked perfectly for the next five years with zero maintenance, and I am pretty sure it works fine still. My main concern would be that I don’t know how much more complicated the C41 is. If it is a delicate piece of equipment with many things that could go wrong, then yes, probably keeping it in service another 10 years is a stretch. But for the CIIB the only things that were usually going bad were the connectors (still available) and the servo (which at the time could still be overhauled). If the situation is similar with the C41, installing a GPS to drive it, with the idea that if the C41 fails down the road there is a path to upgrading to a GFC500, does not sound to me like a bad idea.

I’m not providing advice. I’m probably not qualified to “advise” anyone. But, hearing a different perspective to make sure it’s considered from all angles is useful. We all have a tendency to focus a bit narrowly when looking at these things. This is why you post the question on a forum for random people to opine. Frankly, what I spend is irrelevant. The OP’s budget and tolerance for cost and downtime has nothing to do with me. Owning an airplane is not a cheap endeavor, even for the cheap bastards. If it is cheap, chances are you’re doing it wrong. Opening up a panel to install new avionics is both expensive and time consuming. If you spend half the amount repairing and configuring a legacy autopilot with new avionics is not free. It would be easy to spend half of the 20k cost for a gfc500. A good analogy would be doing an IRAN on an engine which is at TBO. Sure it’s cheaper but is it the cheapest in the long run? Does it add value? If the only question anyone has about maintenance/upgrades on an airplane is what it costs, they probably can’t afford to own it.

Caveat Emptor True - if you don’t mind heaping up piles of cash and setting them on fire. Four (4) years ago @Jake@BevanAviation said his shop quotes for a GFC500 installation (in this case replacing a KAP-150 in a J) were typically in the mid $20K’s. Of course prices have gone up in 4 years. And as is well known, the “value” of reduced downtime does not fully translate to added value of the plane if you have to sell. Upgrades lose about half their value immediately if you have to sell in the near future. Major engine/prop work has a better return but you will still be leaving money on the table. Such is the nature of General Aviation and old planes.

I strongly support @Vance Harral's opinion. You can learn everything you need with your current setup, and upgrade later when you know what your real-world needs are. Plus an avionics upgrade will ground your plane for a long time now, so you won't be able to start your training. You don't need an autopilot to do your training, but for real life use of an instrument rating (and overall use of your plane), I would definitely think an autopilot would be very useful. Unless you are flying short flights, it gets boring and tiring to just keep heading and altitude in IMC (or VMC for that matter) for a long time. You can definitely do it, but it is a chore after a while. So before worrying about FD or WAAS, I would spend the money for an autopilot. From what I hear a GFC500 is very nice, but the cheaper option mentioned above seems fine too. (AeroCruze?) Since the audio panel is pretty much independent of the others, I would do that now if it does not ground you for too long. Finally, you could get a one-time database upgrade for $120 or so. An altimeter IFR check should be around $250-300. These costs are pennies compared to an avionics upgrade, just do them and start your training. (You can legally fly for 30 days in IMC, and after that use the GPS as a VMC-only tool. Most of your instrument training will be done in VMC, so you can still shoot practice approaches even with an expired database.)

My quote for dual g5's and PMA8000G is right at $21k. I was told to do a 3 axis GFC500 it would be around $30k. I'm having trouble getting other local shops to call me back or give me numbers, so not sure if this is a good price or not.

So adsb is fine then for now. Ok, so personally, I’d focus on giving yourself a reasonable ifr platform that can be upgraded with an autopilot as funds allow. Definitely do the audio panel. After that, G5s or GI275s. When you do those, ask for a quote to do a bare bones gfc500 install as well so you know how much that will cost. It can be pretty easily upgraded (more servos added) in the future. A basic 2 servo gfc500 will give you altitude hold and lateral steering. No trim or yaw damper but it’s still good. I would price 2xG5s and the gfc500. Go with the G5s, work on your ifr, get the gfc500 when you can. The 430w just isn’t buying you much in my opinion. It gets you lpv mins instead of rnav, but you already have an ILS.

Well not really, but yes, sort of. You do need WAAS with your ADSB, but many "cheaper" ADSB out solutions come with an integrated WAAS gps (such as uavonix tailbeacon https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/uavionix_11-17246.php). Now if you go that route, you don't get WAAS for the IFR approach capability, but you are legal for ADSB. If you get a WAAS IFR gps and then use that to feed an ADSB out transponder, there's likely a lot more $$ involved. Does the airplane currently have ADSB out? If you go the G5 or GI275 route, you can do the autopilot later as those units would work with the GFC500.

I just did a "budget friendly" panel upgrade so I think I can speak to this topic: 1. Autopilot: Focus on the autopilot as the backbone of your upgrade and strongly consider the GFC500. This will decrease your workload significantly and decrease fatigue. In my opinion, mandatory for single pilot IFR and extremely helpful for VFR. 2. GPS: If you are only flying VFR, do not worry about additional GPS capability, but if you are planning on flying LPV approaches then you need WAAS. ADSB is another consideration for US airspace and you would need WAAS with a paired transponder to satisfy this. Do not shy away from an affordable GNS430W, it will get the job done can be replaced later if needed, the new navigators are costly and would put you over budget to be able to afford an autopilot. I kept my 530W and its totally adequate. 3. EFIS: I believe if you are interfacing with older navcomms / etc you are best with the 275, but if you have a 430w it should work with dual G5s. This will also allow vac pump delete. I chose to upgrade my #2 navcomm to the GNC215 to allow it to talk to the dual G5s, allowing me to remove all other CDI / glideslope instrumentation. 4. Flight director: This is a function of the autopilot (GFC500) and not the EFIS. The flight director presents hollow magenta bars for which you to follow (as if you were the autopilot) to facilitate more precise hand flying. When the autopilot is active, the magenta bars become solid and the AP servos engage to follow the flight director cues. To my knowledge, a 275 on its own will not give you a flight director. My G5s present flight director bars only when the FD is engaged on the GFC500. 5. Timing/finances: do not let an avionics upgrade compromise your ability to take of other incidental mechanical maintenance issues that may pop up. 6. Depending on your location, consider a Canadian avionics shop, take advantage of competitive exchange and labo(u)r rates eh! 7. Don't forget good engine instrumentation, much more important than an avionics upgrade in my opinion. A JPI730 will do the trick. FYI my panel now consists of Dual G5s, JPI EDM 730 (existing), GMA340 (existing) GNS530W (existing), GTX335 (existing), GNC215, GFC500 (3 servos). This came to ~35k USD installed which I think was reasonable value. For a 20k budget perhaps you could get a new audio panel (sounds like you need it, maybe find a used one) + GFC500 with a single G5, and keep everything else for now. If money to spare do the 430W upgrade and transponder. Best of luck!

You kinda have to do the whole thing to get the full functionality. GPS navigator, AP, and other parts the AP needs (GFC500 requires G5, G3X, etc).

Greetings all and happy new year, First off- thanks to the community here for making my first 1.5 yrs of Mooney ownership less mysterious! Can’t imagine trying to figure out the nuances of Mooney ownership and airmanship by myself. I have a 3 year old son and wife. With great anticipation, I am starting to plan longer XC flights for this summer. Debating on balance of leg length vs overall number of stops needed. Goal trip will be ~1600 nm in our J model equipped with a GFC500 autopilot. My IFR flight test is this month. I have some ideas how I will approach this. 5 x ~2 hr legs over ~2 days with another 1-2 days of buffer for weather contingencies. Extra leg on the way home for winds. Options for backup commercial flights at intermediate stops in case of worse weather delays. I also think a discussion on personal minima for early IFR pilots is warranted as a part of this discussion. At this point I wouldn’t be planning any approaches below VFR minima. What has worked well for you and your families?

I’m a very satisfied M20B owner. They’re identical in body and engine to the C with minor differences. ALL M20B’s were made in 1961. Only 223 were built and 115 are still flying. The differences to the C are mechanical flaps, no hat rack, slightly lower useful load. That’s it. They all have manual gear. Cons: It’s hard to find an autopilot for the B. The GFC500 is not STC’d for the B. The only autopilot I’ve found is the trutrak. It’s hard to find A&Ps with B experience. Asbestos in the firewall. Pros: very easy to work on yourself. No hydraulics (except for brakes), everything is mechanical. You can find these for cheap still. Avionics upgrades are easy to do with the easy access to the avionics compartment. PM me to chat more about the B

Some advice from the peanut gallery: Both Gleim and Redbird systems are not that great, hardware wise. The 10k+ you are spending is mainly to pay the certification so you can have the ability to log approaches - which if you fly a lot is not that very useful. For a fraction of the cost, you can have a much higher fidelity system that truly mimics the same workflows you have in the cockpit - this is particularly true if you fly Garmin (GTN series). I also think as someone else mentioned, you are way better off with XP12 (I recommend the vFlyte Arrow III with two G5s, a GFC500, and TDS GTN support - disclaimer: VNAV doesn't work yet). I have used a multitude of simulators and none of them are really as good as my humble home setup. If you don't have a PC already or you aren't very technically inclined, I do see value in purposeful built home simulators. However, I think with all the resources online, it is not that hard to learn if you have the time and inclination to do so.

Didn't want to hijack Don's thread (below), but it triggered an experience I had that's worth sharing as a cautionary tale. In my case I was flying a rental C182R with Dual G5s and a GFC500 autopilot (as an aside, a really nice setup to fly). I received a clearance to climb, dialed in the altitude select, pressed IAS and dialed back the speed to cruise climb. The plane pitched up... 7°, 10°, 12°, 15° and kept on going. Before crossing 15° I was already putting forward pressure on the yoke and pressing the AP disconnect button. AP disconnect was not disconnecting, and the AP was fighting me to continue to pitch up. I'm a fairly big guy and with two hands on the yoke it was taking everything I had to keep the pitch down. It took me longer than I'd like to admit to remember to pull the AP and Servo circuit breakers. Except I didn't know exactly which ones they were, and my attention was focused on my fight. I started pulling everything in the general area until the yoke pressure left, got my wits about me, and then figured out which CBs could be put back in. Maintenance didn't find an issue, and to my knowledge it didn't happen again to another person. I have no idea why I was the lucky one. As part of my preflight now I make it a point to touch the AP and Servo CBs while I call them out verbally (yes out loud).

Don, in my setup disabled ESP does prevent GFC500 from reengaging.

Glad you got it safely on the ground. Thank you for posting this. I was not aware of it and the Service Instruction has not been completed on my plane. Until I can get it done, I think I'll run the trim all the way nose up with the electric trim on the ground and see if it jams. I've never experienced it, but I make it a point to never run full nose up trim on landing to avoid excessive forces during a go-around, so I'm not sure I've ever done it. I'd hate to find out it happens for the first time in the air like you and your student did. I'm confident I could maneuver and land at 80-90 knots or so with flaps down and full up trim. The plane likes to fly like that just fine, though not at full power. But it could certainly catch one by surprise at high power settings. I also have a G5 and GFC500, and for stalls, steep turns, and unusual attitude recoveries, I have been holding down the autopilot disconnect button to disable ESP. That is what is recommended in Garmin's manual for the autopilot (below). I don't think I would like having the circuit breaker pulled, and electric trim disabled, during ordinary training, though practicing with it pulled might be a good exercise as well. A question - how could an owner get notified of these service instructions and any new ADs or SBs? I have been reading Mooneyspace every morning since before 2016. If it was discussed here I missed it. I've tried hard to be involved and pro-active in maintenance. I've taken it to Mooney specialized shops who have not said anything about it. If there's a better way I'd like to know.

For those of you with the GFC500 AP, how many of you have already had to replace the servos with Mod1 servos? If you haven't had issues (but have affected SN servos), when are you planning on getting the servos replaced...do you replace them now, towards the end of the warranty period, or a specific time in between? From the service bulletin you have until 5/4/2028 to have these replaced under warranty. https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=y ... iNr8uLLUA6 GSA28 extended warranty service bulletin info link if you need it. From Garmin FAQ: How will my Warranty be impacted? The standard warranty applies after the exchange of the servos. 6 months after the exchange OR the balance of your existing 2-year warranty applies, whichever is longer.

FYI - Garmin GNC is a Garmin Nav Com. There is no GNC500 Nav Com, but there is a GNC355 Nav Com. Garmin GFC is a Garmin Flight Control System. (Autopilot). Garmin has a GFC500 Autopilot.