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This has happened to me! When the shop installs the pitch and pitch trim servos they have to disconnect the pivoting empennage. I don't know the exact procedure, but I infer that when they connect it again, if they haven't properly marked all the previous positions of each connection, there is a risk they will not return the linckages to the exact position they were before. Then, they will need to redo all tail flight control rigging. In my case, the first test flight had a very pronounced nose down tendency and I had to use almost full nose-up trim to land the plane. After the flight I noticed hw much the elevator was drooping down and compared it to older pictures. I live in Brazil, where Mooneys are rare birds, so the shop that installed my GFC500 had only previously worked on one Mooney ever. They had to get my regular Mooney A&P to travel there and redo all tail connections and F/CTL rigging. This is the elevator after the test flight: And this was the elevator before installation: Hope it helps.

The transponder/GPS might be a good solution then. The King transponders have a cavity tube that eventually fails. The STec-30 is a wing leveler than will fly nav and heading with altitude hold, but it is not set up to fly approaches. If it does everything you want, then build your panel around it. But looking into the future the GFC500 is the one that will be supported the best. Take the time to decide the autopilot. It is so much more expensive to do it half way on the first upgrade and then change direction on the next one. It's better and less expensive in the long run to do it once and do it right. I'm pretty sure there have been Eagles (M20S) with Speed Brakes. Check with Precise Flight https://preciseflight.com/product/2000-series-speedbrakes-for-mooney-m20-series/ Dynon was trying to get an "M20" approval for all Mooney airframes, but since Dynon owns a mid body (J model) and they tested it in a mid body, the FAA would only approve the J & K. A lot had to do with the fact that Garmin did three separate flight tests and approvals on (1) short body, (2) mid body and (3) long body Mooneys. What I've heard people paying, all-in for a Dynon panel with labor, new panel, etc is $40,000, but that included A/P on a K, but assumes that you already have an WAAS GPS.

My relatively updated panel (GTN650, GFC500, dual G5s, GTX345) has only one comm/nav provided by GTN. I had outdated second comm before getting my GFC AP, and did not want to spend $$ on moving it around, thinking I'd rather get something nicer later. Now, after flying like this for a year, I'm hesitant spending any more $$. Feel comfy as is, and carry handheld as a backup (which will have to do in any event in case of power failure). Any thoughts on what would justify another bundle of greens on 2nd comm?

Hi y'all, New member, my first post here. I'm considering buying an M20 and looking for some opinions/advice. I'd like to spend right around 100K. I'd like to get something with an already upgraded panel to include 2 G5's (or equivalent) modern engine monitor, ideally JPI 930 primary, and if possible a GFC500. Quite a wish list, right? I kind of like the idea of a Johnson bar which helps narrow the search. Seems like a pretty safe and simple system vs. electric gear with a backup. But I'm looking for opinions on whether to consider Mooney's with electric gear. Any difference in maintenance costs for johnson bar vs. electric? Anyway, here's a few listings I'm looking at, opinions/advice welcome! No engine monitor, high time engine. Anyone know the approximate cost and wait time for a good overhaul? Is factory rebuilt even an option? https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20C&listing_id=2448787&s-type=aircraft No autopilot: https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/249187751/1966-mooney-m20c-piston-single-aircraft Old autopilot, presumably would replace with a GFC500: https://www.aso.com/listings/spec/ViewAd.aspx?id=199015&listingType=true&IsInternal=True&pagingNo=1&searchId=62346357&dealerid= Thanks everybody!

Yes, it’s all Garmin and i’d say it’s well integrated. The previous owner did it “for me”. The gps is a gtn750xi, so touchscreen and the g3x is pretty well integrated with both radios and transponder if you’re interested in controlling them that way, although I prefer the old school knobs. The gfc500 is well integrated and works pretty close to the same as your gfc700. As far as pfd/mfd split it’s reasonably close to pfd/mfd. I fly a G1000 Meridian for work and it’s nice having a dedicated mfd, but the setup in the Mooney is close. One drawback is only having the eis available on the “pfd”. It’s fine in the minimized version on the picture I posted, but if you want to see TIT and Volts/amps, you have to split the pfd into eis/pfd. These are first world problems for sure. I do enjoy being able to link in other stuff easily (like a guardian CO monitor that alerts through the pfd). It has the remote audio panel which is ok, but Id prefer the remote transponder and a physical audio panel instead because it “might” allow more options if the gtn750 ever freezes up.

Wow... that was a very complete answer. Thanks a lot. Let me break it down a little. I very seldom would encounter icing conditions and would not be spending much time around mountains. Luckly, in my region, we have maybe a month or two in which icing is a factor for lower levels, however, if I plan to go higher, it will get colder and I have been taught icing can occur anywhere as long as there's moisture and low temps. So, I am not entirely sure TKS is a requirement although I'd not reject a plane just for having it. I am ok with no TKS and air conditioning. I'd rather have the useful load and not have two additional sources for possible maintenance. I fly mostly IFR and single-pilot, so I am looking into modern avionics to lower the workload. My region is the busiest airspace in all of Latin America, that's why I am looking into big screens, modern autopilot and RNAV capability. I've upgraded my M20J with G3X/GFC500 and it helps A LOT. Since we don't have ADSB mandate in Brazil yet, an active traffic system (TAS or TCAS) will definitely be in my plans. Most Saratogas and Cirruses already come with TAS and nice avionics packages. The Avidyne Entegra on early SR22 or late Saratogas, with GNS430W and Stec 55x autopilots are very capable systems as are the G1000/GFC700s. Modern and recordable digital engine monitoring for me is a must and both Avidyne and Garmin will deliver those. As for the Acclaim I've seen for sale: they all seem to have a smaller useful load as you pointed out. Most of them under 850lbs. Most Turbo SR22 and Saratogas are in the upper 900 or lower 1000s range.

So I am installing a GFC500 which has a trim servo behind the avionics tray. This thread got me thinking, the GMA28C spins the shaft for the elevator trim, and it 'reverse drives' the manual trim wheel. But now I see there is a trim servo near the manual trim that I still need to remove. This could probably be retrofitted to the manual trim and operated with an up down switch, but legality? Aerodon

@Lawmansteve The KAP100 was a roll axis only autopilot, the KAP150 was roll, pitch, and pitch trim. The KFC150 added flight director functions with roll, pitch, and pitch trim standard, with a option for yaw. Finding a good used KAP150 should not be that big of a problem, the challenge is the servos, brackets, hardware, ect. Not to mention the install cost and paperwork to make it all legal. If you are wanting a modern 2-3 axis autopilot system it might be smart to look at new systems. The Aerocruze will be the lowest cost but has some limitations. S-Tec and Garmin will be a step up from the Aerocruze. With the equipment you already have in the aircraft you can't go wrong with the GFC500. It will cost you more vs the Aerocruze but you will have a lot more features with Garmin.

You’re getting reasonable advice. Id keep your panel requirements if possible, but expand your selection to E, F, and possibly early J which might force you towards the $120k level. Nothing wrong with a C too. They might be a little cheaper but a good buy. No fuel injection but still solid. You should be ok with a 500-1500hour engine if it’s been flown a reasonable 60-100 hours (or more) year for the last few. My F had G5s, 430W, stec30, gtx345 and 1450 hours. Interior good, paint not terrible, but not great. Sold for $80k a year ago. If you fly a lot of ifr, the gfc500 is worth it (my K has it), so that seems a reasonable item for you. Get a real good prebuy. Maybe get savvy to run it. Seriously, spend extra here because you will save in the long run. Trust me. Prebuy this airplane well. They all have corrosion potential. Save yourself the heartburn and get a good prebuy. Use savvy or consider it.

We are in the process of deciding to overhaul the runout IO-360 in our M20F, which is actually running fine, but has enough small issues after 2500 hours and 34 years that it's time. The general numbers on overhauling (not factory zero time) this engine at a well-known shop are $50-60K all-in cost (including paying our local mechanic to R&R the engine, new hoses, and other ancillary items not paid directly to the overhaul shop); and lead times at all the well-known overhaul shops running at least 6 months and in some cases over a year. You can get it done sooner/cheaper than this only if you stumble across an "interesting" deal, e.g. an engine already in a local shop for overhaul on which the owner has decided they no longer want the engine (we found one of these, but decided to pass on it). Based on recent market research, we think the $60K cost of an overhaul will increase the market value of our airplane by about $40K, so at first glance, engine overhaul is a money losing deal. We're going to do it anyway because we think the value of sentiment and the "devil we know" is worth that $20K delta, not to mention the travel/tax/opportunity costs of selling our airplane and buying something else. In your case, though, any airplane you buy would be new to you with potential unknown issues. As such, I'd say it's a bad idea to buy a runout and immediately try to get it overhauled, unless you just happen to find a specimen that's extraordinary in all other factors that matter. Installing a GFC500 is going to cost $14-20K all-in cost at any well-known shop, depending on whether you want trim and yaw damper servos. it will increase the value of the airplane by about half that amount on the open market. Regarding landing gear in M20F and older models, the difference in parts cost is just whether you ever need new lock blocks for the manual gear, or new internal gears for the Dukes/ITT actuators on the electric gear birds. Many Mooney owners go decades without needing either, in which case there is no difference. If you do need to replace these major components, the cost of lock blocks on the manual gear birds is less than the cost of internal gears in the electric actuators, but both can be a hassle to find legal replacements for, as documented elsewhere on this board. There is also a difference in inspection costs between manual vs. electric gear, due to Airworthiness directive 75-23-04 requiring inspection of the actuator internals per Mooney SB 109B at regular intervals. The additional work and cost of this inspection is relatively small compared to total operating costs, but it's a minor irritant for experienced owners, and a point of trepidation for new owners who must go through the learning curve of getting the inspection done safely. Having recently done a market analysis on our airplane for insurance valuation purposes, I agree with @gabez that $100K is light in the current market for exactly what you've specified as your dream airplane. But the good news is that I think you're not far off. I think you can find something for $100K involving only minor concessions, or you could pay slightly more than $100K for a really good match. All this is just my two cents, of course, and I could be wrong. Even if I'm not, the market moves around all the time, and there's always a chance you'll find a unicorn deal from a motivated seller.

I am curious; why would you want to do that? The strongest selling point of vintage machines is their simplicity and lighter empty weight. @Ragsf15e and @hammdo does the electric trim with the GFC500 actually spin the jackscrew and trim the whole empennage or does it just allow for electric manipulation of the elevator position?

The gfc500 includes it. There may be another way via an old stc, but that’s not likely available or supportable to install. If you do an autopilot such as the gfc500 it’s an option. Is the airplane new to you? I had an F with manual trim for 10 years and I really liked the manual trim. It’s also (relatively) maintenance free.

Looking for any recommendations to shops anywhere in or around VA (NC, OH, PA, MD) for a GFC500 install. Preferably somewhere that has installed on Mooneys before. Thanks for any info.

Hi MarquezJC! I have the GFC500 installed in my plane and received quotes from both Sparkchasers and Freedom Aviation at KLYH about 3 yrs back. The quotes were almost identical. Both shops are excellent and have a strong reputation based on my personal experience with both. Jason at Freedom Aviation (https://www.flyfreedom.com/aircraft-services/avionics-main) is very reliable, and they are also a Mooney service center. They have completed several jobs for me, always on time, within the quoted price, and with incredible support. They did my panel upgrade, which included G5s, GTNX, GNC, audio panel 345, and more. I have never had to go back for any follow-up issues after each installation. Considering these two options, I don't think you can go wrong with either. I suggest visiting both shops and meeting the teams to see how you feel about them. Also, consider the proximity of the shop in case you need any follow-up support. Good luck! You'll love the GFC500. Best wishes! k

For those of you with the GFC500 AP, how many of you have already had to replace the servos with Mod1 servos? If you haven't had issues (but have affected SN servos), when are you planning on getting the servos replaced...do you replace them now, towards the end of the warranty period, or a specific time in between? From the service bulletin you have until 5/4/2028 to have these replaced under warranty. https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=y ... iNr8uLLUA6 GSA28 extended warranty service bulletin info link if you need it. From Garmin FAQ: How will my Warranty be impacted? The standard warranty applies after the exchange of the servos. 6 months after the exchange OR the balance of your existing 2-year warranty applies, whichever is longer.

With you there! That's why I got GFC500... And even then I did weigh $$ vs benefit. Benefit is tremendous, and I'm glad I did it. There's no comparison to how I flew w/ my old S-Tec 40 and now. On the other hand - radio or GPS failure in my mind leads to immediate need of getting out of IMC as quickly as possible, and having ability to talk to tower or CTAF to land. Having secondary COM/GPS is very convenient in THAT EVENT, but does not really provide as high a guarantee as dual magnetos do for continued flight, for instance. Electrical failure risk remains, and it feels to me (perhaps incorrectly) it is likelier scenario than failures as seemingly narrow as radio/GPS (b/c alternator is mech device I guess?)... If I could have purely emergency cover for both that is also inexpensive - I would just continue enjoying failure free so far flying w/o large expense. Hence my hesitation. It is obvious, however, that options eval does continue in my mind! ;-) Itching to spend =)

How much $$ is it reasonable to continue pouring into over 60-year old plane? ;-) After GFC500 upgrade, which I find invaluable, I'm in the territory where 100% of further improvement expense is unrecoverable, vs typical 50%... Stacking that against the reason you gave is my challenge.

Hello Mooney Experts My buddy has a M20K with the KFC-200 autopilot that feels like you are riding on waves when the Alt hold is on. He thought it was so slow to response so at annual he had roll and pitch sent off for overhaul at mid continent. Now this issue...Any Advice? Shop wants to sell him the GFC500 and G5s.... I doesn't want to get deeper into the plane. Thanks

On a flight yesterday, about 10 minutes into the flight with the GFC500 flying, climbing to and level at 7000 for about 3 minutes, my G3X generated error messages, showed chevrons to climb, A/P beeped at me, but did not disconnect. I was level at 7000. I disconnected and reconnected A/P a couple times with no change. I finally pulled the PFD CB, waited a few seconds, reset it. All good for the remaining 1 hr+ of the flight. I landed and took off, everything worked perfectly. No turbulence. Pics below.

Aircraft ownership is just a way to lose money…some planes faster than others. I have been paying $580/mo. for a hangar for about 15 years. That is about $7k per year and before that it was $6k per year. I have paid the City easily $130k just to keep my plane out of the weather over 20 years. And I am bracing for a rent increase. Everyone brags about their fabulous new GFC500 autopilots and flat panels after spending about $80k. New interiors, $20k+ on paint, $15k on tank seals. And that doesn’t begin to touch the engine or prop…depending on what you are flying another $60k?…maybe a $100k…more like $130k if you have a Bravo. Oh and insurance! I just laugh when owners say “I’ve never lost money on selling a plane” …

My wife and I just had this discussion on a flight Saturday. When we put in the GFC500 I didn't add the yaw damper, couldn't justify the extra cost. In cruise I typically stick my foot/boot in between the rudder pedal and side panel to keep it straight and not have to keep constant pressure with my leg. It would be nice to just let the AP do that work. I still might add it one day.

im getting the Aerocruze 100 for my m20e, gfc500 is nice just don't want to spend 10amu more

People that have an Aspen and GFC500 will have either a G5 or a GI275 to control the AP. So you can either install a G5/275 that will control the AP and keep the aspen. Or get rid of the Aspen and go for 2x G5 or 275s.

Finally got my GAD43e upgrade completed. No additional wires needed in my case. One hiccup in that on the GAD43e configuration page on the G500, the installer initially selected "King KAS 297" for the type, but it had to be set to the "King KAS297B". When I flew home I couldn't get it to work, then after about 30 minutes of digging online I figured out the KAS297B seemed to be necessary. So I flew back over and the installer was able to update that and now it works. I love the level-off at altitude, it's super smooth. And as I continue to age (for 25 to 35 years hopefully) I expect that will prevent me from overshooting an altitude. I wasn't sure how it would handle the altitude hold after level-off at a preselected altitude, but it does actually turn on the altitude hold mode on the autopilot. For operation, when you select an altitude or vertical speed on the G500, it notifies you to hold the ALT button to select altitude capture or V/S set and capture. When you do press and hold the vertical speed, it will set the vertical speed to your current, and then you twist the knob to adjust it. Really looking forward to selecting an altitude at a waypoint, looking at the vertical speed required on the GTN750, setting that in the G500 and watching it fly me there. It's not actually a vertical nav system like if I had the GFC500 autopilot, but it's still pretty great!!

This '96 MSE that has been on controller.com has an Aspen, one GI275 next to it, and the GFC500 autopilot. How were they able to do that? I also have an interest in this. https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/245297647/1996-mooney-m20j-mse-piston-single-aircraft