A Newbie Has Some Basic Mooney Questions

[christianhgross]

I am a newbie, and planning on getting my private pilots license with instrumentation (maybe MEP) (albeit in Switzerland). I have been looking for a plan to buy as it will be used for long haul trips (eg to the corners of Europe, Canada, etc). I plan on using the Northern Atlantic Route to Canada.

The thing is that I have been looking at various planes for example a Piper PA34-200 Seneca, or Piper PA30. But the added fuel costs and as one pilot described perspective (when one engine conks out on a twin engine your plane will quickly ressemble a lawn dart) am leaning heavily towards the Mooney.

From doing my research and talking to people the cost to value ratio on a Mooney is very low, meaning Mooney's are really good value for your money. But now comes the question.

1) Would a Mooney be best suited for longer haul flights that will includer over water.

2) Where can I get detailed specs on each Mooney model. I tried hunting through the Internet and it is hen pecking.

3) Which Mooney model is the best for a budget of say less than 100K, but if push came to shove (and it better be good) could squeeze 150K. I have been looking at the various models and noticed that for example the K series and above is a turbo model and hence could be used in higher altitude (which I want), though the J seems popular and could it handle my needs? It is really confusing actually...

4) Or should I be looking at another plane?

Thanks...

[Cruiser]

Quote: christianhgross

I am a newbie, and planning on getting my private pilots license with instrumentation (maybe MEP) (albeit in Switzerland). I have been looking for a plan to buy as it will be used for long haul trips (eg to the corners of Europe, Canada, etc). I plan on using the Northern Atlantic Route to Canada.

The thing is that I have been looking at various planes for example a Piper PA34-200 Seneca, or Piper PA30. But the added fuel costs and as one pilot described perspective (when one engine conks out on a twin engine your plane will quickly ressemble a lawn dart) am leaning heavily towards the Mooney. 

I think further study is called for in this area. Many twins are capable of single engine performance and don't behave like lawn darts. Some may be better choices than others.

From doing my research and talking to people the cost to value ratio on a Mooney is very low, meaning Mooney's are really good value for your money. But now comes the question.

1) Would a Mooney be best suited for longer haul flights that will includer over water. This is a pilot/operator risk question, airplanes don't know if they are over water or land, mountains or forests. The question becomes what are the survival odds IF a forced landing is required. Twins offer the addition safety of a second engine. 

2) Where can I get detailed specs on each Mooney model. I tried hunting through the Internet and it is hen pecking.

3) Which Mooney model is the best for a budget of say less than 100K, but if push came to shove (and it better be good) could squeeze 150K. I have been looking at the various models and noticed that for example the K series and above is a turbo model and hence could be used in higher altitude (which I want), though the J seems popular and could it handle my needs? It is really confusing actually...

4) Or should I be looking at another plane? You are asking some conflicting questions. What is your actual priorty? I would recommend filtering your choices first by mission, then by function, then by price. What good will it do to have a cheap plane that will not deliver your expectations.

Something you might consider is to research the application you envision and they find out what others actually flying the way you plan to do are using for planes and equipment. 

Thanks...

[Parker_Woodruff]

A Piper Seneca II or later has a pretty decent single engine service ceiling. It's up in the teens, if I remember correctly. The Seneca II and later has more or less the same engine as the M20K. 

[galt1074]

Christian,

1) The answer to this one is largely dependent on what you are willing to accept risk-wise. The probability of losing an engine is pretty low, the probability of losing two engines is extremely remote (unless of course it is your fault through ice, or fuel starvation). However, if you lose an engine in a Mooney over the North Atlantic you are pretty much dead no matter how well you ditch the airplane because you'll freeze in a matter of minutes.

2) Start here  http://www.mooneyevents.com/chrono.htm  and then you could try http://www.what2fly.com. I'm sort of new to this civilian flying thing but as I've learned researching Mooney's you can get most of them with turbos to get you a little higher, of course you'll need oxygen to get very high. 

3) I've been shopping for some time now and Js are about your best bet for a good plane under $100K US

4) If it weren't for the whole North Atlantic flying bit I'd say you are looking for what most of the Mooney pilots I've met are looking for...good cross country platform. However, I know people who make that flight single-pilot in single engine aircraft and it is tough...really tough...and the guys that I know that say that are several-thousand hour military guys with all the right equipment.

I've flown multi-engine for the last 3k hours or so and the biggest piece of misinformation out there is the relative safety of multiple engines. First, two engines are more likely to get you to safety than one. However, the performance and safety advantages of two engines is not really double that of one engine, more like one-third again. Two engines burn more gas but don't make you go twice as fast, on one engine you can still fly but pilot technique and workload go through the roof and you only fly about 33% as well as an equivalent-weight single engine aircraft would on the same horsepower due to the amount of drag induced by the asymmetric thrust. I guess what I'm saying here is that I would not make the North Atlantic crossing as a low-time private pilot maybe even in a multi-engine aircraft. I've made that trip a couple times in C-130s and it is not a forgiving route with over 16K horsepower and four engines, I can't imagine what it is like behind 200 horsepower and one spinning prop. In all reality and if you looked at it statistically and objectively, you'd probably be fine...but the price is pretty steep if something goes wrong. No "ifs" or "buts"...you ditch in the North Atlantic, you die in a matter of minutes according to all the military survival training I've been given.

Greg

 

 

[christianhgross]

First thank-you everybody for your responses. 

My main aim with the plane is not to fly commercial! Sounds odd, but I like to fly, but hate flying in a commercial plane. I like to drive, and in my 16 years of marriage I think I can count on my two hands how often my wife has driving while I sat in the passenger seat. 

This means I want to do long haul flights in the order of 1000+ nm flights. Regarding my Northern Atlantic crossing I am actually planing on hiring a ferry pilot to be my "co-pilot". At least for the beginning because I understand doing this on my own would be a bit dicey. 

Here are the priorities:

1) Fuel efficiency (I looked at a Piper that sucked back 40 GPH and thinking, yeah I see why they want to sell that plane).

2) Cost like I mentioned, general cost of ownership.

3) Range has to be at least 900 NM, with the possibility of adding an extender (eg Mooney range extenders)

4) Needs to be able to fly at least 17,000 ft as I live right beside the Alps and there is no way I want to navigate through the mountains. Too many people crash into the alps because their plane could not fly over them. It's awesome on a clear day flying through the valleys, but there are also "awesome" wind channels. I also want to be able to fly over windy conditions that happen all to regularly in Europe. 

5) Need some amount of haulage for my wife, our two dogs, and myself.

When I put all of those things together it all boils down to getting a Mooney since nobody else has a plane that is competitive, at least that is the impression I get.

And I am researching all of the tips mentioned...

[Parker_Woodruff]

17,000 ft all the time?  You need an M20K.

[OR75]

Citations or Gulfstream are great to cross the pond in any direction non stop ...

 

[jlunseth]

I don't know the geography out there, but you need a minimum of 2,000 more than the mountains, in order to stay out of mountain waves.  So if the highest point is 16,000, you need a plane that can go to at least 18,000, and you probably want one that can go to 18 and have power left to go higher.  That is unequivocally going to be a turbo, a K or Bravo or Acclaim.

When we cross the Rockies we generally use FL200 or 210, and sometimes need to go higher because of weather/cloud layers. 

[danb35]

Quote: christianhgross

3) Range has to be at least 900 NM, with the possibility of adding an extender (eg Mooney range extenders)

[snip]

5) Need some amount of haulage for my wife, our two dogs, and myself.

[jlunseth]

You might find a K or a Bravo with extended tanks that could get close to that.  Hopefully you and your wife are slim, the dogs are small, and you bring no luggage.  Then you could afford the weight to fill the extended range tank.  For my 231, unless I had a hellacious tailwind, 900 nm would be beyond my comfort range and that of most aircraft in the same general class as the Mooneys.

The Ovation, which is normally aspirated, might be able to make the altitude that you want and would probably have a better useful load than a turbo, but however you look at it, you are at or beyond the envelope of Mooneys, or for that matter their pilots' bladders.

[stevesm20b]

I think I would buy a Cessna P210 for that kind of flying.

[jetdriven]

Quote: Cruiser

[jetdriven]

A TN IO-550 F33 Bonanza might be a better choice for high altitude high useful load flying.   Tip tanks and a turbo IO-550 will fly a very long while.  See this thread.  www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=67165