Mooney crash in NY area

[jetdriven]

Patrick's plane was found where the green "A" is.  Upside down, oriented on a magnetic heading of about 125 degrees.

[jetdriven]

Quote: co2bruce

Mooney Eagle (M20S) POH also states "RETRACT IN CLIMB   after clearing obstacles" , I have always been taught to retract when there is no longer enough runway to safely land straight ahead.

[201er]

Patrick had a 1995 M20J 201 MSE. The point about the landing gear down until clear of obstacles just shows that you're supposed to be able to clear the obtacle with gear up or down so retracting it shouldn't be the deal breaker in making it out in that distance. By how much you'll clear the obstacle is a whole other story though. This presumes stock plane and  absolutely perfect piloting with the speed on the exact number.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: 201er

Patrick had a 1995 M20J 201 MSE. The point about the landing gear down until clear of obstacles just shows that you're supposed to be able to clear the obtacle with gear up or down so retracting it shouldn't be the deal breaker in making it out in that distance. By how much you'll clear the obstacle is a whole other story though. This presumes stock plane and  absolutely perfect piloting with the speed on the exact number.

[201er]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

Please tell me where you got that information. I highly doubt Mooney is going to publish something in their POH under Normal Procedures that will give someone The worst possible performance just to prove something about their performance charts. See my post at the top of this page.

Normal procedures is about flying the airplane for best performance, not interpreting performance charts 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: 201er

[Parker_Woodruff]

An M20K Information Manual is sitting on my desk at work right now.  As metioned before, I see absolutely no reason for Mooney to recommend a procedure that will hurt climb performance - therefore they say retract the gear once obstacles are cleared.  They are not going to put something as normal procedure just because they made the performance charts with the gear down.

Are we concerned about a 50 ft obstacle at the end of a 10,000 ft runway?  Not really.  But in a short field takeoff scenario, absolutely!

[flyboy0681]

The only thing I would like to ask on the subject of performance while bringing the gear up is can it really amount to much? We all know that the electric gear on the Mooney is lightening fast and the wheels are tucked away in a matter of a few seconds - if even that. Has anyone ever watched the gear on an Arrow, Commander or Cessna go up? Those hydraulic systems can take between thirty seconds and a minute.

[jetdriven]

An early 12-volt 177RG takes 13 seconds to extend or retract the gear. Thats the longest I know of.

Parker is right, opening gear doors cause more drag during the retract cycle, because of the gear door that opens into the slipstream, and the associated extra gear well area that is exposed.  A Cessna 337, for example, takes  serious hit in climb rate and I am not sure it will even hold altitude on one engine with the gear in transit.

[John Pleisse]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

[201er]

Ok, I guess I can't say that. But from personal experience and my best guess, you lose nothing during gear retraction but gain a lot once it is full up. From personal experience I have felt no drag or noted any loss of airspeed. From my guess, the amount of forward facing surface area, it stays exactly the same while swinging inward. No extra gear doors or things open or expose surface while the gear is moving inward. So my best guess is that you lose nothing during the retraction but gain a lot in 5 seconds when it is retracted.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: flyboy0681

The only thing I would like to ask on the subject of performance while bringing the gear up is can it really amount to much? We all know that the electric gear on the Mooney is lightening fast and the wheels are tucked away in a matter of a few seconds - if even that. Has anyone ever watched the gear on an Arrow, Commander or Cessna go up? Those hydraulic systems can take between thirty seconds and a minute.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: N4352H

 

[Hank]

Quote: jetdriven

An early 12-volt 177RG takes 13 seconds to extend or retract the gear. Thats the longest I know of.

Parker is right, opening gear doors cause more drag during the retract cycle, because of the gear door that opens into the slipstream, and the associated extra gear well area that is exposed.  A Cessna 337, for example, takes  serious hit in climb rate and I am not sure it will even hold altitude on one engine with the gear in transit.

[Parker_Woodruff]

For a good discussion, start with post #18

http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?t=81457

[flyboy0681]

Quote: jetdriven

An early 12-volt 177RG takes 13 seconds to extend or retract the gear. Thats the longest I know of.

 

[John Pleisse]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

 

I have no clue. You sure it wasn't a login issue (this board has bugs!)?

as mentioned above it's something I learned new from Ed @AOPA, and the manual gear vs. M20J POH is different, IIRC.  They mention an airspeed for retraction (also note it's easier when slow to retract)

A good post to start with is #18 in this thread:

http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?t=81457

I don't mean to jump on those who originally missed that in the POH (because my CFI sure didn't point it out when I learned Mooneys!) but we CANNOT afford to make judgements about how performance charts are necessarily the "worst case scenario".

[jetdriven]

It will take a little longer to extend than in the video due to airloads, but 13 seconds is a valid number.

I probably have 100 hours in a 71 Cardinal RG.

Ok, please, back to topic.

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: N4352H

Would it have helped in the case of this accident? Likely not.

[davewilson]

 Any piston powered twin will NOT climb on one engine with the gear down.  A beech18 moderately loaded with the gear down, both engines at full power at sea level, CLIMBS LIKE A DOG!

[Skywarrior]

I see the point that people are making about certain gear assemblies actually creating more drag during transit. If that's the case for your airplane, so be it.

However, think of this: You're the company aircraft testing director, and you're about to start T/O performance testing. Do you want to tell the test pilots to get the gear up as soon as safe, and risk having varying test results because some pilots bring the gear up earlier than others, or do you want to guarantee there is uniformity in all of the tests, so you tell the pilots to leave the gear down until after obstacles are cleared.

For the sake of testing uniformity, you'd probably go with the latter.

[PTK]

Patrick and Casey were laid to rest today. May they rest in peace. 

This whole thing just sucks and hurts alot. Be careful folks.

[MooneyMitch]

Obviously this has hit close to home with all of us.  Please be safe everyone.  RIP Patrick.  You are deeply missed and mourned by all.

[201er]

Peter, when we had our fly in at your airport that you didn't show up to, all the guys were making comments and beating up on you regarding what you said about pushing planes by the propeller (which was the hot topic on mooneyspace at the time). Yet Patrick was the only guy on your side. He said, "Anyone who buys our group lunch is a friend of mine." And that was that. He was a genuinely nice guy and he did not dislike anyone. We're still in shock about all of this. It's a terrible shame you didn't get to meet him. I think you'd be friends on the spot.

[mooneygirl]

Rest in peace Casey and beautiful Patrick. My thoughts and prayers are with the families.