N201MKTurbo Posted October 23 Report Posted October 23 2 hours ago, Rick Junkin said: The important thing to consider here is that everyone is affected at different rates and as with hypoxia, judgement can be affected almost immediately. Also if you have a CO problem, the source of the CO could be the more serious problem and that could devolve quickly. I agree that getting on the ground as soon as practical is more appropriate than as soon as possible without indications of other issues. No need to rush into anything without "winding the clock" and making a considered assessment of the situation. But make an early decision on a course of action and get it in motion and communicated as soon as possible, just in case you start losing the ability to make your best decisions. Whether or not to declare an emergency is a PIC call left to his/her judgement and assessment of the situation. I agree completely. Most people have never had CO poisoning. I have. My symptoms correlated with the chart above. I have no idea what my PPM was. The spot detectors turn black at 100 PPM. From the chart above I would say 400 PPM. The crack in my muffler was big. It was about 4 inches long and about 1/4 inch in the center. So it is hard to imagine a bigger leak. This exhaust was going straight into the cabin. CO poisoning doesn't come on instantly it creeps up on you. You start feeling really awful with a splitting headache and feeling like you need to throw up. My eyes got real sensitive to light. This was over the course of two hours. I thought I was getting the flu or something. My point is you will get some serious symptoms long before you are incapacitated. If you don't have any symptoms, you have plenty of time to land the plane without panicking. Quote
dkkim73 Posted October 24 Report Posted October 24 2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said: I agree completely. Most people have never had CO poisoning. BTW I'm sure I speak for a lot of people here in saying 1. Glad you're ok! and 2. Good situational awareness! 1 Quote
carusoam Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 Nice input everybody! I enjoy the related rates conversations… very chemical engineering-ish… 1) the rate of CO absorption vs CO exhaustion… CO gets an unusually strong bond… 2) strength of CO / hemoglobin bond vs O2 / hemoglobin bond… 3) And mostly… the increase of CO2 production vs CO production while lean of peak… excess O2 vs O2 limited… when it comes to cracked metal parts… a small leak can turn into a very big leak when the crack propagates without telling anyone… can be similar to a windshield chip, turned spider, turned crack, turning into a crack that runs across the entire windshield… know your V-band limitations… they are expensive and have real limitations on their number of times the can be re-used… mufflers have parts that direct hot exhaust gases properly… often these internal baffles get warped and start misguiding the hot gases… causing hot spot problems… has anyone seen @DanM20C lately? he always has good input on this topic… Especially on the speed of falling asleep in the climb… Best regards, -a- Quote
dkkim73 Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 It's funny (I think I mean odd) that I flew a cross-country (headwind) yesterday, ROP, and noticed my CO detector above 0 for the first time ever in cruise (around 10, though the memory showed up to 30, maybe from a prior taxi with the door open). I experimented with vent settings and got it to go down again. Then I noticed it was back up near the end of the flight. I was running the cabin heater a lot, so the cross-over heat transfer shroud naturally came to mind. It's in to have another thing checked right now, asked them to look at exhaust system and potential leaks. Recently had cylinders replaced (3 and 4) and I think they dropped the exhaust in place rather than removing the bands. I don't know the exact details, but hopefully no torquing-related cracks... I seem to recall hearing that setting that up and relieving the stress can be tricky. Will report back if I find anything enlightening. D Quote
DanM20C Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 45 minutes ago, carusoam said: has anyone seen @DanM20C lately? he always has good input on this topic… Thanks Anthony! I think many here are spreading the message as well as I could. The biggest thing I learned with my incident was how much the cognitive decline was with CO poisoning. At times I didn't have any symptoms yet my mental acuity was lacking. My wife would say that's me everyday. But nowhere was the cognitive decline taught to me. The other symptoms were taught as what happens, and it's what I taught when I instructed a primary student. This lead me to believe that I would be able to catch CO poisoning while it was happening. That clearly didn't work for me. As many have stated, CO poisoning is basically hypoxia. I don't know of any studies that just examine the effect of the CO. But CO finds a way in by replacing the O2 in the hemoglobin, thus making you hypoxic. The last flight on the day of my accident, I was able to copy and read back my IFR clearance, taxi out, and take off. It only took 4-1/2min from departure until I was sound asleep. So it can get dangerous fast, this is of course without a CO detector. With a detector I probably would have fixed my leak weeks or months before. I'm not taking anymore chances with CO now. I'm currently redoing my panel and will have my Guardian panel mounted detector, an Aithre panel mounted detector, and a Sensorcon AV8 mounted on the panel. As well as the Lightspeed Delta Zulu headset for both front seats. That's obviously way overkill. But these are the companies that have helped me promote CO awareness in aviation and I believe in their products. It's nice to support them. @Rick Junkin pointed this out. Many people have reported back to me what they have found with their detectors. Many find problems that could have turned much worse well before CO would have been a problem for the pilot. Broken engine mounts, V-bands, leaking exhaust burning through a fuel line, etc... So it's great to treat the CO monitor as if it is another metric on a engine monitor. Cheers, Dan 4 2 Quote
201er Posted October 29 Author Report Posted October 29 10 hours ago, DanM20C said: Thanks Anthony! I think many here are spreading the message as well as I could. The biggest thing I learned with my incident was how much the cognitive decline was with CO poisoning. How many PPM reading is: ”no big deal, they all leak some” ”let’s get a mechanic to look at this some time” “continue to destination but this needs to be fixed” ”declare an emergency and land” Quote
Hank Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 2 hours ago, 201er said: How many PPM reading is: ”no big deal, they all leak some” ”let’s get a mechanic to look at this some time” “continue to destination but this needs to be fixed” ”declare an emergency and land” The table on Page 1 says that per OSHA (which doesn't really apply here), 35 ppm is permitted, 100 ppm is acceptable for "several hours," and 200 ppm is "unacceptable." But it all depends on where under your cowl it's coming from . . . Check anytime your normal reading changes, so that you don't burn through a fuel or oil line--in which case you won't be worrying about CO! Quote
Pinecone Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 On 10/23/2024 at 4:26 PM, Rick Junkin said: The important thing to consider here is that everyone is affected at different rates and as with hypoxia, judgement can be affected almost immediately. Also if you have a CO problem, the source of the CO could be the more serious problem and that could devolve quickly. Also, those charts are based on sea level, so a certain partial pressure of O2. At altitude, the effects are likely increased due to the lower O2 partial pressure. Quote
Pinecone Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 4 minutes ago, Hank said: The table on Page 1 says that per OSHA (which doesn't really apply here), 35 ppm is permitted, 100 ppm is acceptable for "several hours," and 200 ppm is "unacceptable." Actually the OSHA PEL (Permissible Exposure Limit) is 50 PPM for an 8-hour Time Weighted Average exposure. So this is the max you should be exposed to for a normal 8-hour shift. If you are exposed for only 4-hours per day, the allowable would be 100 PPM for that 4-hours with Zero exposure the other 4-hours. If you worked a double shift (16-hours) the allowable level about be 25 PPM. OSHA Maritime standards require that workers be removed from the work area at over 100 PPM, except for ro-ro (driving cars on an off ships) allow 200 PPM. The 35 PPM is a NIOSH Recommended Exposure Limit, and it is not legally binding. The ACGIH TLV is 25 PPM. This is a consensus standard. The other two are Government agency standards. 1 Quote
carusoam Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 The big thing to recognize… 1) Know what your base line CO number generally is… 2) your meter may read 10ppm while taxiing on the ground or doing a run up… it’s nice to see your meter working… 3) if your meter starts reading a different number or different range… your meter is talking to you… you may be running rich on the ground, while normally running very lean…. 4) +1 for using the CO monitor as another instrument… if it hints of reading high in its current location… move it to a different location. move it in front of the heater outlet to see if it goes vertical, Mav…! 5) number of air molecules in the cabin declines with altitude, while the engine produces a never ending supply of CO (comparatively…). 6) maximize the O2 in the cabin… maximize the O2 reaching your nostrils… - turn your O2 system up safely… - check your air vent CO level! minimize the CO production… - lower engine power… - lean of peak… - consider flying at Carson’s speed… minimize CO production, but may extend time aloft… 7) remember, above 10k’, we are running pretty low on O2 under ordinary conditions… the sticky CO won’t go away fast enough… 8) Cognitive skills decline as O2 levels drop off… similar to the effects of alcohol… the brain has a few different capabilities that will all be effected differently…. Memory and thought processes are two important components… with a mega headache… we get a whole new level of distraction added to the pile… 9) cutting torch under the cowl… is a land now opportunity. Review the procedures often… Fly Safely! Partial PP summary only, not a CFI or safety guru… thanks to everyone who added a thought, or just read the posts… best regards, -a- Quote
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