Electric Kick Scooters

[MikeOH]

Just now, Hank said:

You do realize that in flight, the door leaves just over a 1" gap when open? The slipstream at cruise speed is strong enough that you can't push it open any further. 

Yes, but I'm pretty sure I can force an iPad through that gap!  Especially when motivated by the fact it is 'displaying' smoke and flames!

[Pinecone]

On 8/18/2024 at 9:33 AM, LANCECASPER said:

It may not be a perfect solution but it looks like they have thought through some of things:

"The AvSax can minimize that danger in seconds with its unique use of water. Simply pour at least two liters of water into an AvSax and then drop the burning device into the bag. The water activates the polymer gel inside the bag, causing it to expand around the device. Should the device continue venting, the AvSax is tough enough to absorb the explosive force. In short, the AvSax cools the batteries in the device, reducing the likelihood of the battery catching fire but if it does go into thermal runaway it is all contained within the bag. Includes bag and protective gloves for handling the overheating device. Measures 19” x 7” x 2” packed; weighs 4 lbs."

 

Having seen the amount of hot gases coming out of a small cell phone battery, I am not convinced.

And yes, flying IFR, pouring 2 liters of liquid in a bag while the battery is venting smoke and flames with work fine.

[N201MKTurbo]

In the book Fate is the hunter. The captain starts lighting matches and waving them in front of his new copilot during a difficult approach. This was to see how he could perform with distractions. I guess the modern version would be your phone flaming on during a bumpy wet approach to minimums.

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, Pinecone said:

 

Having seen the amount of hot gases coming out of a small cell phone battery, I am not convinced.

And yes, flying IFR, pouring 2 liters of liquid in a bag while the battery is venting smoke and flames with work fine.

The worst case emergency scenario is always an in-flight fire. 

The only question I ask myself is, since I fly with electronic devices, if something like this happened, and there's no perfect solution,  would I be better off with some containment or not? 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

7 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

The worst case emergency scenario is always an in-flight fire. 

The only question I ask myself is, since I fly with electronic devices, if something like this happened, and there's no perfect solution,  would I be better off with some containment or not? 

 

If you could put it in a container, you will still get the same gas and smoke, but the container will shield/insulate the burning battery from the rest of the airplane keeping the fire from spreading. Remember the burning battery is most likely laying on a seat or the carpet. two things that are likely to catch fire.

While the fire bags are convenient, any metal container, like a fruit cake can would get the job done. 

[MikeOH]

7 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

The worst case emergency scenario is always an in-flight fire. 

The only question I ask myself is, since I fly with electronic devices, if something like this happened, and there's no perfect solution,  would I be better off with some containment or not? 

 

I've thought about this and decided no way I'm going to try and get the thing in a container or bag; it's going out the door.  Even if I succeeded in getting in a bag/container, there's still going to be smoke and heat that could ignite whatever it's sitting on.

This discussion has made me think it's probably a good idea to carry a pair of fire-resistant gloves, however.

[N201MKTurbo]

2 hours ago, MikeOH said:

I've thought about this and decided no way I'm going to try and get the thing in a container or bag; it's going out the door.  Even if I succeeded in getting in a bag/container, there's still going to be smoke and heat that could ignite whatever it's sitting on.

This discussion has made me think it's probably a good idea to carry a pair of fire-resistant gloves, however.

Or a small pair of kitchen tongs in the seat back.

[Fly Boomer]

23 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

While the fire bags are convenient, any metal container, like a fruit cake can would get the job done. 

Words like "outgassing" and "flame" suggest that the atmosphere around the device is probably expanding.  I'm not sure "containment" is going to work.

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, Fly Boomer said:

Words like "outgassing" and "flame" suggest that the atmosphere around the device is probably expanding.  I'm not sure "containment" is going to work.

If you were going to put the lid on the can, you should punch some vent holes. If you put the lin on with no holes, it may blow the lid off.

I designed a system to charge Lion batteries for surgical instruments. It would charge 100 of them at a time. I had lots of batteries and the ability to abuse them every possible way. I overcharged them till they caught on fire. I discharged them till they caught on fire. Just for the fun of it I beat them with hammers till they caught on fire. And drove nails into them till they caught on fire. These were 12V 3 cell batteries about 1" square and 3" long. So not a huge battery. With these batteries, they would always fail with a jet of gas and some flame. Kind of like one of those crack lighters. It was a fairly high temperature jet, but with low total heat. They would sometimes ignite the plastic case, but the plastic had good fireproof qualities and would not continue to burn once the battery reacted out. It would usually continue for 2 or 3 minutes. The biggest thing would be keeping the hot jet of gas from igniting other things.

[Fly Boomer]

2 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I had lots of batteries and the ability to abuse them every possible way.

I notice that your descriptions of four versions of abuse all use the word "flame".  That is terrifying.  I love ForeFlight, but I may have to rethink my iPad and phone usage in the airplane.

[N201MKTurbo]

9 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

I notice that your descriptions of four versions of abuse all use the word "flame".  That is terrifying.  I love ForeFlight, but I may have to rethink my iPad and phone usage in the airplane.

Sometimes it would just outgas without flame. I found those failures disappointing. The flames would just exist in the gas jet. The fumes were not very flammable, so once the gas cooled the flame would go out. The flame stopped about 1" from the battery. This is just one data point from a single battery design.

[N201MKTurbo]

BTW, I did everything it said not to do on the label.

[MikeOH]

25 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

BTW, I did everything it said not to do on the label.

Curious to know how far above 60C it took for the fun to begin?

[N201MKTurbo]

27 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Curious to know how far above 60C it took for the fun to begin?

IDK, I just put it on a hot plate till it got mad. 
 

The takeaway from all this was although the batteries failed. It was kind of a non event. In most cases if you just held the battery by its leads until it gave up. You would be OK.   
 

In a large battery, like an electric car, one cell could fail and overheat the adjacent cells. This could cause a chain reaction that will quickly involve the whole battery. This would be bad.

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I found those failures disappointing.

That was funny. 

[Hank]

4 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

In a large battery, like an electric car, one cell could fail and overheat the adjacent cells. This could cause a chain reaction that will quickly involve the whole battery. This would be bad.

Oh, you mean like this? "Bad" sounds like an understatement. 

https://www.kcra.com/article/placer-county-big-rig-fire-crash-interstate-80-emigrant-gap/61912862

[N201MKTurbo]

4 hours ago, Hank said:

Oh, you mean like this? "Bad" sounds like an understatement. 

https://www.kcra.com/article/placer-county-big-rig-fire-crash-interstate-80-emigrant-gap/61912862

Electric airplanes are the way of the future….don’t cha know.

[Pinecone]

On 8/20/2024 at 1:33 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

any metal container, like a fruit cake can would get the job done. 

Metal container will transfer heat to the surface it is sitting on.

Also, the lid will pop off and everything will then come out.

The bags insulate and allow the pressure out (with the smoke and gases) but without the flame

[N201MKTurbo]

2 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Metal container will transfer heat to the surface it is sitting on.

Also, the lid will pop off and everything will then come out.

The bags insulate and allow the pressure out (with the smoke and gases) but without the flame

Like the bag won’t transfer the heat? 

[Pinecone]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

Like the bag won’t transfer the heat? 

Not like metal.  It is woven from a fire proof fabric.  

Which is better to pick up something hot?  Oven mitts or a piece of metal in your hand?

 

[N201MKTurbo]

7 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Not like metal.  It is woven from a fire proof fabric.  

Which is better to pick up something hot?  Oven mitts or a piece of metal in your hand?

 

Like tongs?

[Mooney in Oz]

On 8/19/2024 at 6:49 AM, MikeOH said:

Be honest here, how many carry fireproof gloves to even pick the device up and do anything with it?

I do, including a fire containment bag. Both are kept in the large pocket pouch attached to the back of the front pax seat.

Hope I never have to use them.

[LANCECASPER]

On 8/22/2024 at 4:56 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

Like the bag won’t transfer the heat? 

 

On 8/22/2024 at 4:58 PM, Pinecone said:

Not like metal.  It is woven from a fire proof fabric.  

Which is better to pick up something hot?  Oven mitts or a piece of metal in your hand?

 

The main function of the Avsax isn’t just a place to drop the device into that’s heating up. As was mentioned in a previous post, you add water when you drop it in the bag. 

“The water activates the polymer gel inside the bag, causing it to expand around the device. Should the device continue venting, the AvSax is tough enough to absorb the explosive force. In short, the AvSax cools the batteries in the device, reducing the likelihood of the battery catching fire but if it does go into thermal runaway it is all contained within the bag. Includes bag and protective gloves for handling the overheating device”

[N201MKTurbo]

2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

 

The main function of the Avsax isn’t just a place to drop the device into that’s heating up. As was mentioned in a previous post, you add water when you drop it in the bag. 

“The water activates the polymer gel inside the bag, causing it to expand around the device. Should the device continue venting, the AvSax is tough enough to absorb the explosive force. In short, the AvSax cools the batteries in the device, reducing the likelihood of the battery catching fire but if it does go into thermal runaway it is all contained within the bag. Includes bag and protective gloves for handling the overheating device”

Sure, but now you have to carry a bag and a big water bottle.

I hate to be a litter bug, but if my device catches fire it’s going out the storm window or the door. I hope it doesn’t start a wildfire.

[Hank]

3 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

 

The main function of the Avsax isn’t just a place to drop the device into that’s heating up. As was mentioned in a previous post, you add water when you drop it in the bag. 

“The water activates the polymer gel inside the bag, causing it to expand around the device. Should the device continue venting, the AvSax is tough enough to absorb the explosive force. In short, the AvSax cools the batteries in the device, reducing the likelihood of the battery catching fire but if it does go into thermal runaway it is all contained within the bag. Includes bag and protective gloves for handling the overheating device”

 

40 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Sure, but now you have to carry a bag and a big water bottle.

I hate to be a litter bug, but if my device catches fire it’s going out the storm window or the door. I hope it doesn’t start a wildfire.

Do you think the bag is impact-rated to fall from your plane with burning stuff in it and not bust open when it hits the ground / trees / road / a building, scattering flaming debris around?

And how do you get that burning scooter battery in the baggage area up to the storm window anyway???