Recommendations on a pre-Mooney first plane?

[Lax291]

Feb 2023 is when I bought my J, $160K hull value, 50hrs TT, 0 RG, not even my PPL yet and getting insurance was tough as I had 1 option through Assured Partners.  1st year was $8K but they were the only ones that would insure me with my little experience.  

I received my PPL, gained more time and was able to cancel the policy early and used @Parker_Woodruffto quote out and save a few thousand.  Once I hit 100 hrs in the J and 200hrs total I plan to reach out again and look to keep dropping the total insurance cost.  

[Max Clark]

1 hour ago, dkkim73 said:

Do you know what their other minimums or criteria were?

Regardless of purchase price they assigned their own hull value

>$300k hull (their value) triggered more requirements

[dkkim73]

29 minutes ago, Max Clark said:

Regardless of purchase price they assigned their own hull value

>$300k hull (their value) triggered more requirements

I was more curious about @Z W's experience with Avemco. If they didn't need 700hrs PIC, what did they need? 

[Z W]

2 hours ago, dkkim73 said:

Do you know what their other minimums or criteria were?

I don't really recall, it's been over 10 years.  They insured me on our M20C without much trouble when I only had about 50 hours in 172's and a fresh PPL.  I think I had a dual requirement of 10 or 25 hours which I just used to work on my instrument rating and transition into the Mooney.

When we got the M20K they declined to cover me at first, even with a fair amount of M20C time.  I ended up finishing the instrument rating in the M20C, flying the K about 25 hours uninsured, then re-applied and they covered me.  If I were doing it again I would probably shop harder and pay more for insurance instead of taking the uninsured path, but it worked out for me.

[bcg]

Knowing what I know now (bought my first plane this month) I would tell you to buy an IFR capable PA-28-180 or 181.
Fly that through 250 hours and your commercial rating before thinking about buying a RG. 
Find a club or FBO with an Arrow that you can get checked out in. Fly that for 25+ hours. Sell the Archer and trade into an Arrow with ratings and time in type. 
100-200 hours RG before you think about moving to another plane, but again figure out how to get 15-25 hours in type before buying.
This will get you the optimal insurance premiums along the way.
When shopping insurance I was told to quote Avemco as a benchmark. They wouldn’t even quote me insurance in an RG with less than 700 PIC, 100 RG, and 25 in type.
Alternatively you can do what I ended up doing. Just suck it up, pay the fortune in insurance year one and try to have 100+ hours in the plane at your renewal. 

Also FWIW having your IRA is worth a 15-20% decrease in the premium. But you’re still going to pay through the nose year one.
Max
Other tips
- Hangar at an airport with long runways and approaches makes a difference
- Be ready with a CFI under 65 with lots of time in your specific make/model

That's interesting, Avemco was happy to quote me last year with 150 hours and a PPL. Granted, 130 of those hours were in the Mooney but, they still weren't anywhere near 700 PIC.

I took a different route and just paid cash for my C and flew it uninsured until I got my private, then carried liability only for a year while finishing my instrument. It's only been 10 days now that I've had full coverage on it and my insurance this year with 350 hours, instrument rating and about 320 hours in the Mooney was right around $2600. I didn't think that was terrible. I'm only carrying $100k for the hull though, I'm sure it would be higher if I was flying an Ovation.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[dkkim73]

57 minutes ago, Z W said:

When we got the M20K they declined to cover me at first, even with a fair amount of M20C time.  I ended up finishing the instrument rating in the M20C, flying the K about 25 hours uninsured, then re-applied and they covered me.  

Thank you. I think a lot may be model-specific. I had an IR, HP and tailwheel time, prob 290ish hrs TT but a long flying gap and almost no RG time. I only was quoted by 2 out of approximately 10 agencies. 

I've been told different things by different people. I'd like to get 100 hrs in type before the next cycle (had to pay for it to sit in annual for a few months). Have about 30 hrs dual, looking to get more in the next few months, and have been doing WINGS activities (one broker told me that helped). 

We'll see. But all the anecdotes, recent at least, are helpful here on MS! 

[BlueSky247]

Hey guys - just to maybe help clarify the factors, Avemco also made it clear that they really cared about the engine being over 200hp. So I would have been three factors above a basic trainer when I asked about getting coverage on a K - complex, high performance, and retract. So I'll get the endorsements on those from the school asap and I'm sure that would help along with getting at least 100 hours logged and transition training. (I have since decided to focus on a J instead.)

[NickG]

53 minutes ago, BlueSky247 said:

Hey guys - just to maybe help clarify the factors, Avemco also made it clear that they really cared about the engine being over 200hp. So I would have been three factors above a basic trainer when I asked about getting coverage on a K - complex, high performance, and retract. So I'll get the endorsements on those from the school asap and I'm sure that would help along with getting at least 100 hours logged and transition training. (I have since decided to focus on a J instead.)

Just thought I'd share my experience. I'm 59. I got my certificate in 1986 and flew about 250+ hours between 1986 and 1992. I flew Cherokee 180's, 172's, 150's and Citabrias. I then quit flying (work, kids etc) and started up again in 2020. I couldn't find my old logbooks, so I wrote to the FAA for my old training records (no, they didn't come back on papyrus scrolls). I decided to jump right back in and go through Cirrus transition training. I had no idea it would be so challenging. After completing Cirrus training, I decided that they were just too much plane for me at my current level, so I opted to buy a Cherokee 235 - had all the docile traits of a Cherokee 180 with a bit more ooommph! I put 220 hours plus on the 235 and got my IR in it. I can tell you that the IR was challenging, took more hours than I expected but was enormously enjoyable and improved my piloting skills exponentially.

I sold the 235 and moved up to an Ovation about 6 weeks ago. I'm still in transition training - 25 hours and 28 landings and I'm still not fully comfortable landing yet (although very close). I've got speed and stabilized approaches down I just have to get the right sight picture! Anyhow, insurance for my 235 was $2200/year with a 150k hull value. Insurance (even with an IR) on the ovation is $6800/year with a 300k hull value although I now have enough retract and time in type to get it adjusted (Avemco).    

I ended putting in about 6k in maintenance for the Cherokee 235 over the 12 months or so I owned it. Too early to say yet on the Ovation as I'm still working out a few early squawks. 

My advice is 1) not underestimate the process of getting an IR and actually being proficient - I'm not sure the 6 days classes will spit out proficient IR pilots - that takes time. 2) I was much more comfortable training in my own plane - confidence in maintenance, familiarity and availability are worth a lot to me 3) recognize the difference between a complex, High Performance aircraft and a primary trainer - they are different beasts.

I don't know your financial situation, but I would recommend buying a well maintained and decently equipped 180 or 235, finishing your PPL, work through your IR and get some experience. then sell it and move up. The market for primary trainers is strong and if you buy right, you should be able to at least break even. I bought my 235 for 109k and sold it 12 months later for 135k. If you want a Mooney (and they are fantastic birds) be prepared to put in more dual time and pay higher insurance rates for the first year or two.  Thus endeth my novel. Enjoy!

[BlueSky247]

@NickG Very helpful information, thank you Sir!

[BlueSky247]

Okay, just hung up with Avemco. They won't do any kind of policy for a student on a retract. Not even a "not in motion" basic coverage if I wanted to store a plane until I finish the ppl. 

[NickG]

1 hour ago, BlueSky247 said:

Okay, just hung up with Avemco. They won't do any kind of policy for a student on a retract. Not even a "not in motion" basic coverage if I wanted to store a plane until I finish the ppl. 

Wow. Try Travers. Avemco doesn't work with brokers. Travers will take you out to market.

[BlueSky247]

17 minutes ago, NickG said:

Wow. Try Travers. Avemco doesn't work with brokers. Travers will take you out to market.

Thank you! I just called and they said that would actually do me a full policy as a student and the ballpark would be around 6k on a 100k hull value. Steep, but at least it's possible and that would just be the first year. 

[toto]

11 minutes ago, BlueSky247 said:

Thank you! I just called and they said that would actually do me a full policy as a student and the ballpark would be around 6k on a 100k hull value. Steep, but at least it's possible and that would just be the first year. 

I'm not sure whether his quotes would be different from Travers, but @Parker_Woodruff is a MooneySpace supporter and many of us use his agency.  Definitely worth pinging Parker for another data point.

[BlueSky247]

1 minute ago, toto said:

I'm not sure whether his quotes would be different from Travers, but @Parker_Woodruff is a MooneySpace supporter and many of us use his agency.  Definitely worth pinging Parker for another data point.

Thank you. Yes indeed, I have a message into him as well. 

[NickG]

1 minute ago, toto said:

I'm not sure whether his quotes would be different from Travers, but @Parker_Woodruff is a MooneySpace supporter and many of us use his agency.  Definitely worth pinging Parker for another data point.

Absolutely. Use the MS supporter!!!! 

[Parker_Woodruff]

The ticket to this is a pro-flown aircraft policy while finishing the private pilot certificate, then endorse it for the owner as a new private pilot.  Better coverage options that way.