Another Just sorry he was in a Mooney - can't fly IFR because iPad died

[PeteMc]

4 hours ago, Paul Thomas said:

It's amazing the how helpful controllers are.

If it's day to day operations and you're just screwing up the NY Controllers will eat you alive.  They just don't have the time and I'm guessing the tone of some of the earlier transmissions were not so nice.  

But as soon as that changes from just some idiot that can't listen to wait a sec, this guys having problems.  Those Controllers are the best!!  Nothing that bad, but I've heard them calm down and bail out a few student or low time pilot where you can tell they were out of their element in the greater NYC area. 

[hubcap]

Personally, I would never blast off into IMC with an IPad as my only GPS.

I am shocked that someone would actually do that. 

I know many of us got our instrument rating with a 6-pack, but seriously, the controller was awesome, otherwise this guy and his wife are statistics.

[NickG]

On 2/12/2024 at 10:31 AM, shawnd said:

Agree. My guess is he was a VFR pilot who inadvertently ended up in IMC. But didn't want to declare emergency to get out - which is the unfortunate part. He was taking vectors clearly so likely using AP to its fullest potential.

This guy was obviously a VFR pilot with zero clue how to fly an instrument approach. Blamed his dangerous actions on his equipment.

[PeteMc]

5 hours ago, hubcap said:

Personally, I would never blast off into IMC with an IPad as my only GPS.

No, at one point he made the reference that the Panel GPS was sending him the wrong way.  And the only "other GPS" he had was in his iPad.  

Now as far as the rest of the inability to fly the VOR Approach...  Did his training just gloss over VORs and he only knew enough to do the one or two VOR Approach in his area that the DPE *might* ask him to do???  Then quickly forgot everything about VORs.

 

[toto]

7 hours ago, hubcap said:

Personally, I would never blast off into IMC with an IPad as my only GPS.

I am shocked that someone would actually do that. 

I know many of us got our instrument rating with a 6-pack, but seriously, the controller was awesome, otherwise this guy and his wife are statistics.

Way back in the day, many of us made do without an IFR GPS in the panel, and it mostly worked fine. I had the very first Garmin panel mount GPS (the GPS-100) which was VFR only, and controllers were very accommodating.. you could put “VFR GPS on board” in the notes field of your IFR flight plan, and controllers would routinely ask what was the “heading” to your destination. You would give them the magnetic course from your GPS, and get a “cleared to XYZ via radar vectors, fly heading 123” which might be to a place hundreds of miles away. You’re legally flying a vector on a defined heading, and using your VFR GPS just as a reference.

Anyway, it’s possible to do this sort of thing with a VFR GPS, but you need to be very competent and current with the terrestrial nav sources and procedures. I honestly don’t understand why anyone would plan to do an RNAV approach if they aren’t proficient with their certified GPS.

I have flown with instrument rated pilots who spend 95% of their time staring at an iPad in their lap and ignoring the certified panel mount navigator, and I always try to encourage them to answer questions using the certified unit. It’s often a GNS navigator, not very pretty to look at, but very capable. Getting familiar with the buttonology when things are quiet and calm will make you much more capable of solving problems when the sh*t hits the fan. 

[Pinecone]

18 hours ago, IvanP said:

One good argument for the G-products is the similarity of interfaces. My Aera760 and GTN 750 installed in the plane have very similar UI. In case the main unit goes out, switching to the Area as back-up nav will be non-event and lot less stressful than i-pad situation. I recall that i-pads have the tendencey to overheat and shut down in some situations. OF course, the battely life issue aplies to all portables. Having a connection to power source during the entire flight is, in my opinion, imperative, regardless of what unit one chooses. 

Garmin Pilot is also a similar interface on a multipurpose tablet.

I have USB power outlets and carry a battery bank for backup.  Just don't drop the battery bank.  If you do drop, do NOT take it in the airplane for a few hours.

[Pinecone]

14 hours ago, hubcap said:

Personally, I would never blast off into IMC with an IPad as my only GPS.

I am shocked that someone would actually do that. 

I know many of us got our instrument rating with a 6-pack, but seriously, the controller was awesome, otherwise this guy and his wife are statistics.

I might with an older panel.  We did fly IFR before GPSs.

But considering that I fly with 4 - 5 GPSs, I DO have a preference to have a panel mount, IFR certified navigator.

FYI - G3X Touch has VFR GPS.  iPad (with GPS) running ForeFlight and Garmin Pilot.  GTN-750Xi.  GTN-650Xi.  And sometimes have my AERA 760 with me.

[midlifeflyer]

26 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

I might with an older panel.  We did fly IFR before GPSs.

Yeah but then we also had a whole bunch of Victor airways, VORs (that were maintained), and NDBs for navigation. Even DME was a big deal if you had it. 

[midlifeflyer]

7 hours ago, toto said:

Way back in the day, many of us made do without an IFR GPS in the panel, and it mostly worked fine. I had the very first Garmin panel mount GPS (the GPS-100) which was VFR only, and controllers were very accommodating.. you could put “VFR GPS on board” in the notes field of your IFR flight plan, and controllers would routinely ask what was the “heading” to your destination. You would give them the magnetic course from your GPS, and get a “cleared to XYZ via radar vectors, fly heading 123” which might be to a place hundreds of miles away. You’re legally flying a vector on a defined heading, and using your VFR GPS just as a reference.

Didn't need a panel for that. It was SOP with handhelds. 

[toto]

Just now, midlifeflyer said:

Yeah but then we also had a whole bunch of Victor airways, VORs (that were maintained), and NDBs for navigation. Even DME was a big deal if you had it. 

We even had IFR-certified area navigation before GPS

You could go direct with LORAN or with VOR-based RNAV.

[toto]

Just now, midlifeflyer said:

Didn't need a panel for that. It was SOP with handhelds. 

I didn't mean to imply that you needed a panel, just that you could fly IFR with a supplemental VFR GPS safely and legally.

[midlifeflyer]

32 minutes ago, toto said:

We even had IFR-certified area navigation before GPS

You could go direct with LORAN or with VOR-based RNAV.

The first time I flew with a KNS 80 I thought I died and went to heaven. 

[toto]

3 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

The first time I flew with a KNS 80 I thought I died and went to heaven. 

Ha - me too.  "Here's a VOR we know about ... and .... we'll just create our own little pseudo-VOR 100 miles away, then navigate direct to that" mind -> blown

 

[hubcap]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

I might with an older panel.  We did fly IFR before GPSs.

I get that, and did not want to imply it couldn’t be done. However, using my IPad for GPS navigation in IMC is below my personal minimums. I will drive before I intentionally put myself in that situation.

[EricJ]

34 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

The first time I flew with a KNS 80 I thought I died and went to heaven. 

29 minutes ago, toto said:

Ha - me too.  "Here's a VOR we know about ... and .... we'll just create our own little pseudo-VOR 100 miles away, then navigate direct to that" mind -> blown

These days you could duplicate that with a $35 RTL-SDR USB tuner and a Raspberry Pi.    I'm surprised nobody has done it yet.    I was thinking of doing it but I have other projects in the pipeline.   It'd be a nice backup for if/when GPS goes down and just operate off of the MON VORs.   Could even integrate it in with the Stratux so when it detects GPS loss, it gives a lat/lon estimate from triangulating off the VORs as a substitute for the GPS output.    

[toto]

18 minutes ago, EricJ said:

These days you could duplicate that with a $35 RTL-SDR USB tuner and a Raspberry Pi.    I'm surprised nobody has done it yet.    I was thinking of doing it but I have other projects in the pipeline.   It'd be a nice backup for if/when GPS goes down and just operate off of the MON VORs.   Could even integrate it in with the Stratux so when it detects GPS loss, it gives a lat/lon estimate from triangulating off the VORs as a substitute for the GPS output.    

RNAV feels like something that could be done with a software enhancement to any modern navigator (any modern navigator that accepts terrestrial nav sources).  I have no idea what the certification path would look like, but it would surprise me if Garmin and Avidyne aren't already working on something like this, given recent concerns about the vulnerability of satellite-based navigation signals to jamming/spoofing attacks.

I'm interested in the future direction of eLORAN, but obviously eLORAN would require new hardware, while a MON-based RNAV system could be built using existing VOR receivers.

[Fly Boomer]

33 minutes ago, toto said:

I'm interested in the future direction of eLORAN, but obviously eLORAN would require new hardware, while a MON-based RNAV system could be built using existing VOR receivers.

DARPA is working on a new PNT (GPS is the current system) that doesn't rely on satellites.  It uses "cold-atom interferometry; chip-scale self-calibrating gyroscopes, accelerometers and clocks; and pulsed-laser-enabled atomic clocks and microwave sources" to deliver a military-grade PNT that can help us maintain air superiority, and be resistant to jamming and spoofing.

https://www.extremetech.com/defense/202111-darpa-to-re-invent-gps-navigation-without-satellites
 

[toto]

4 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

DARPA is working on a new PNT (GPS is the current system) that doesn't rely on satellites.  It uses "cold-atom interferometry; chip-scale self-calibrating gyroscopes, accelerometers and clocks; and pulsed-laser-enabled atomic clocks and microwave sources" to deliver a military-grade PNT that can help us maintain air superiority, and be resistant to jamming and spoofing.

https://www.extremetech.com/defense/202111-darpa-to-re-invent-gps-navigation-without-satellites
 

Interesting.  Sounds like a fancy new INS.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

DARPA is working on a new PNT (GPS is the current system) that doesn't rely on satellites.  It uses "cold-atom interferometry; chip-scale self-calibrating gyroscopes, accelerometers and clocks; and pulsed-laser-enabled atomic clocks and microwave sources" to deliver a military-grade PNT that can help us maintain air superiority, and be resistant to jamming and spoofing.

https://www.extremetech.com/defense/202111-darpa-to-re-invent-gps-navigation-without-satellites
 

And you will be able to buy one, or a nice Acclaim, to have a DER approve for you. It will only occupy half of your panel and 1/3 of the baggage space.

[Shadrach]

19 hours ago, PeteMc said:

If it's day to day operations and you're just screwing up the NY Controllers will eat you alive.  They just don't have the time and I'm guessing the tone of some of the earlier transmissions were not so nice.  

But as soon as that changes from just some idiot that can't listen to wait a sec, this guys having problems.  Those Controllers are the best!!  Nothing that bad, but I've heard them calm down and bail out a few student or low time pilot where you can tell they were out of their element in the greater NYC area. 

That is their reputation, but as an occasional user of that airspace, I have found NYC area controllers to be far more accommodating and professional towards GA compared to other busy sectors.

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, Hank said:

And you will be able to buy one, or a nice Acclaim, to have a DER approve for you. It will only occupy half of your panel and 1/3 of the baggage space.

Sounds about right.  I think there was a description of early GPS receivers in that article I referenced above--huge.

[PeteMc]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I have found NYC area controllers to be far more accommodating and professional towards GA compared to other busy sectors.

Very true!  And if you fly there a lot, then you can get yourself in trouble in other areas because they seem to do what works for both you and their traffic.  I was doing a X-US flight a while ago and was going into KBJC in the DEN area on a short hop VFR from our last fuel stop.   I was watching all the KDEN traffic doing their N/S arrivals and departures and *assumed* I'd get shot right over KDEN and then down into KBJC.  Big empty canyon with very little traffic.  Was I ever wrong and was the Controller REALLY LATE in telling me that wasn't the plan even though I had made a comment about it when I first checked in.  

Ended up with a crash dive under the CBA past KCFO and then further to the south to turn up in between KAPA and KBKF while both were pretty busy.  Then back up the west side under the CBA.  Granted I'm not a controller, but after seeing the ADS-B "big picture" and flying in the NY CBA area for years, it was one of the worst plans by a controller I had ever seen.  Sure I could have said "good by" since I was VFR, but just not worth it to not talk to them in busy airspace.... But this was pushed me to the limit of staying with them. 

 

[Shadrach]

15 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

Granted I'm not a controller, but after seeing the ADS-B "big picture" and flying in the NY CBA area for years, it was one of the worst plans by a controller I had ever seen.  Sure I could have said "good by" since I was VFR, but just not worth it to not talk to them in busy airspace.... But this was pushed me to the limit of staying with them. 

indeed a consequence of having the tech to see the big picture is being able to see odd controller decisions play out in real time. Or in the case of Potomac Tracon,  apathy and needless denials of reasonable requests from GA piston recips.

[Pinecone]

On 8/3/2024 at 12:43 PM, toto said:

We even had IFR-certified area navigation before GPS

You could go direct with LORAN or with VOR-based RNAV.

I only flew one plane (Grumman GA-7 twin) with a VOR/DME based RNAV.   I was out of flying when LORAN came into the cockpit, but doing my Helicopter ratings in the 90s, some of them had LORAN.  I did not really use it.

[Pinecone]

On 8/3/2024 at 1:52 PM, EricJ said:

These days you could duplicate that with a $35 RTL-SDR USB tuner and a Raspberry Pi.    I'm surprised nobody has done it yet.    I was thinking of doing it but I have other projects in the pipeline.   It'd be a nice backup for if/when GPS goes down and just operate off of the MON VORs.   Could even integrate it in with the Stratux so when it detects GPS loss, it gives a lat/lon estimate from triangulating off the VORs as a substitute for the GPS output.    

Hmm, I said that earlier.

I think that Garmin could develop and LRU for DME and some software changes in the GTN series to do VOR/DME and DME/DME navigation as a fall back/back up to GPS.