Tight Landings, Take Offs, and Close Calls!

[Hank]

25 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

Just look at the trim indicator after you have landed unless you “trim in the flare” it should be at what you approached the runway with. 

That's when I notice it being near the Takeoff mark. But I ignore the indicator when turning the trim wheel, unlike the Flap indicator which I watch when initially dropping them to the Takeoff setting when slowing to approach speed or on downwind.

[A64Pilot]

9 hours ago, Echo said:

A64...That is how mis- information gets out there.  You should modify that post or at least acknowledge/clarify that slips are NOT an issue in majority of Mooney's.  The issue was/is with long bodies.

I didn’t say it, I said others did.

That of course did what I expected, brought out those that did know to comment. Is the K a long body?

I think it pretty much corroborated my statement, that is one of the Mooney Test pilots said don’t, but as far as I know there is no Prohibition against it.

I did learn something and that’s that the reason for it is a lot of up trim, I won’t say excessive because many think you should trim for approach that requires near zero pull in the flare, I disagree mostly because of the what I consider excessive force required to hold the nose down on a go-around. A stall and crash on go-around isn’t unheard of. My takeoff and landing trim are the same. That way I’m trimmed for a takeoff if I decide to go around, and neither require much force, you have to pull a little to break ground which of course reverses when flaps are raised, and you have to pull a little in the flare. 

I fly into a lot of private grass strips and Go-arounds are pretty common, largely due to these big stupid sand hill crane’s, but sometimes it’s just because you didn’t nail the touchdown spot which if it’s a short grass strip it’s just best to go-around and not to try to salvage a bad landing.

I had an “incident” once trying to salvage a bad approach on my Maule, cost me a bunch of money and was without the airplane for over a year. I could have prevented that by simply going around, so now I go-around more frequently. Once bit, twice shy. A Maule I learned in a full stall landing has no elevator effectiveness due to so little airflow over it, you need a blast of power right before you touch down to raise the nose and arrest the excessive descent, don’t and you hit hard. I was flying it like a Cessna, and it’s not. 

Also I didn’t say every GA airplane can get into shorter than it can get out of, many like my Maule had the power to accelerate like a dragster, many especially on grass don’t. My 140 certainly doesn’t. But I can pull the wings and put it on a trailer in a couple of hours max with a helper. I’ve not had to do that yet, but I have a friend with a trailer.

I’ve not seen very many short paved strips, perhaps they are more common than I realize, but when you say short and challenging, that usually means grass and very often it’s not the length that makes it challenging, sometimes it’s how soft it is and or how close and tall the trees or wires are.

Flew into Sheets FA42 last Wed for lunch, as it’s an ultralight airpark and I’ve heard that they tow hang gliders with the Ultralights, I took the 140 because the Mooney with its 5” nose wheel could come to grief with a pocket gopher hole, or just rough ground that an Ultralight thinks nothing of, turned out to be smooth OK for the Mooney but I didn’t know that.

Many of these Central Fl grass strips used to be Orange groves and are too rough in my opinion for a Mooney so I take the 140 first to check them out. People will tell you it’s fine, because it is in their 182.

Anyway the “book” says the N/S runway is 2,000, but doesn’t mention the dirt road that crosses the middle of the runway that of course isn’t a smooth crossing, so it’s really more like 1,000 unless you want to roll over a dirt road.

[exM20K]

35 minutes ago, Will.iam said:

The test pilot didn’t get it either until he got below 85 knots. Since the F flies a slower approach than a 252 i wonder if it happens to an F but it’s just at a slower speed. One of these days i will go up and practice a few slips at altitude and slow it down to 80 kias just to see what buffeting she does and how quickly the tail stalls beyond the buffeting. 

You may need to slow down more than that.  In my incident, BOS Approach left me stupid high for rwy 5 at KBED.  I used to always try to fly a 1.3x Vso max final, just to keep things consistent.  Still do.  So I was trimmed for that speed, alone in the cockpit (forward CG) and forward slipping.  I wanted to make E taxiway as I parked at Atlantic, and full length taxi takes forever.  The yoke is where I felt the buffet, kind of pulsing in and out. I relaxed the slip, and the plane flew normally, landed long, and did the long taxi back.

I’d be very careful taking it beyond the onset of buffet or light elevator. 
-dan

 

[A64Pilot]

You only “need” a slip when coming in over tall obstacles and need to get down, slip of course increases descent rate without increasing airspeeds. Speeds then are WAY less than 80 kts at least in a J and that’s being heavy with near full fuel and 100 lbs in the baggage compt. I think my touch down speed is high 40’s maybe? Honestly I haven’t looked, touchdown is when she quits flying in ground effect with no float of course and elevator is near full travel

The hundred lbs in baggage does hurt acceleration on takeoff, but other than that I don’t think it’s hurts performance, if anything it seems to cruise slightly faster, not slower and landings are easier not being nose heavy.

No one can argue that 100 lbs doesn’t hurt take off and climb, but I think the trade off is worth it.

Please if you’re going to practice short field landings and I think we all should, be comfortable with go-arounds and don’t try to salvage a bad approach. It can get expensive.

Grass is fun, if you cut out grass fields you’re cutting out a whole lot of fun, country laid back flying, lots of EAA fly-ins etc happen at grass strips, But then I’m the type that would be miserable living in a City, the once or twice I’ve done it we were young and I didn’t like it. 

Many grass field are as smooth as pavement, and if you fly off of grass your brakes last a long time and you change tires when they dry rot. Tires just don’t wear on grass and I don’t think you can flat spot one either, but you really shouldn’t need much braking on most grass anyway.

However at least in Fl there is sand and that does wear on the prop, I don’t go full throttle until I’m past 20 kts, but you can still tell there is erosion on the prop.

[Nokomis449]

When VFR, I often come in a little high and slip down to "crossing the fence".  I never slip below 90kts, and keep 90 nailed with full rudder deflection, until I'm at the desired height above ground.  Crosswinds or wife on board might change my technique a bit.  When coming out of the slip, I level off and almost immediately hit 80kts, my target at that point.  Then it's a power and attitude dance to the numbers.  1500ft pavement or grass are no problem for my G.

I went to an Mooney fly-in lunch at Cullman, AL several years ago.  7 or 8 Mooney's as I recall.  What struck me as I watched others land is how much runway they wasted.  (If you were there, I'm talking about everyone else.)  The approaches and rollouts were more akin to Citation Jets than 4 seater pistons.  Slow flight and stalls are to be mastered, not feared.

Back to short fields, here's me getting into a 1,500ft grass strip with 2 adults and half fuel, and two hours later getting back out after a drenching rain.  Song is by friends Tophat and Jackie from Orange Beach, AL.

https://youtu.be/U6z4wA1mgG0

[Echo]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

I didn’t say it, I said others did.

That of course did what I expected, brought out those that did know to comment. Is the K a long body?

I think it pretty much corroborated my statement, that is one of the Mooney Test pilots said don’t, but as far as I know there is no Prohibition against it.

I did learn something and that’s that the reason for it is a lot of up trim, I won’t say excessive because many think you should trim for approach that requires near zero pull in the flare, I disagree mostly because of the what I consider excessive force required to hold the nose down on a go-around. A stall and crash on go-around isn’t unheard of. My takeoff and landing trim are the same. That way I’m trimmed for a takeoff if I decide to go around, and neither require much force, you have to pull a little to break ground which of course reverses when flaps are raised, and you have to pull a little in the flare. 

I fly into a lot of private grass strips and Go-arounds are pretty common, largely due to these big stupid sand hill crane’s, but sometimes it’s just because you didn’t nail the touchdown spot which if it’s a short grass strip it’s just best to go-around and not to try to salvage a bad landing.

I had an “incident” once trying to salvage a bad approach on my Maule, cost me a bunch of money and was without the airplane for over a year. I could have prevented that by simply going around, so now I go-around more frequently. Once bit, twice shy. A Maule I learned in a full stall landing has no elevator effectiveness due to so little airflow over it, you need a blast of power right before you touch down to raise the nose and arrest the excessive descent, don’t and you hit hard. I was flying it like a Cessna, and it’s not. 

Also I didn’t say every GA airplane can get into shorter than it can get out of, many like my Maule had the power to accelerate like a dragster, many especially on grass don’t. My 140 certainly doesn’t. But I can pull the wings and put it on a trailer in a couple of hours max with a helper. I’ve not had to do that yet, but I have a friend with a trailer.

I’ve not seen very many short paved strips, perhaps they are more common than I realize, but when you say short and challenging, that usually means grass and very often it’s not the length that makes it challenging, sometimes it’s how soft it is and or how close and tall the trees or wires are.

Flew into Sheets FA42 last Wed for lunch, as it’s an ultralight airpark and I’ve heard that they tow hang gliders with the Ultralights, I took the 140 because the Mooney with its 5” nose wheel could come to grief with a pocket gopher hole, or just rough ground that an Ultralight thinks nothing of, turned out to be smooth OK for the Mooney but I didn’t know that.

Many of these Central Fl grass strips used to be Orange groves and are too rough in my opinion for a Mooney so I take the 140 first to check them out. People will tell you it’s fine, because it is in their 182.

Anyway the “book” says the N/S runway is 2,000, but doesn’t mention the dirt road that crosses the middle of the runway that of course isn’t a smooth crossing, so it’s really more like 1,000 unless you want to roll over a dirt road.

O.K.  You threw out a wrong generalization (the first post) to get someone else to hunt down and post Kromer's article on slipping a long body AND K Mooney.  Got it.  That's clearly a technique and one way to go.

I submit that: Slips are absolutely "Doable" in short body Mooney's and a GREAT way to rapidly lose altitude if/when needed.

I did not EVER slip my Missile and would not slip my E down low below 80MPH in landing configuration.  I 100% agree with you that go arounds are the way to go and an opportunity to fly a bit longer which I love to do.

[A64Pilot]

I slip my Mooney whenever needed, but that’s not often. I slip the snot out of my C-140, it’s one Cessna that slips are OK, because it has regular flaps I think is why.

If your trying to spot land slips are a great tool, because you can vary the descent rate easily

Slips are a very effective method of losing altitude without gaining airspeed, Slips used to be very common but you don’t see them being taught much anymore it seems, I don’t know why, perhaps more Modern aircraft aren’t allowed to slip? Cirrus and Diamond etc? I don’t know.

There is a LOT of training going on where I live, fly to Deland and try to sequence in between the Embry Riddle students. From a glance I think training is different, you just don’t see the nose high land on the mains with the nose in the air that I was taught ever, most often you see three point or maybe the nose a little high but still touches down at the same time as the mains. I was taught that the nose wheel was for taxing, not landing, but the 152’s that I learned in I think have weak nose gear too.

I think slips have gone the way of spins, they I don’t think are taught anymore, because I never see any of the trainers doing them, but then I’ve not noticed even one soft field takeoff either, but I’ve not sat and watched them, maybe they are but I don’t see it.

I think the emphasis is on teaching Airline drivers now, and they don’t slip, spin or do soft fields I guess.

[A64Pilot]

4 hours ago, Echo said:

O.K.  You threw out a wrong generalization (the first post) to get someone else to hunt down and post Kromer's article on slipping a long body AND K Mooney.  Got it.  That's clearly a technique and one way to go.

I submit that: Slips are absolutely "Doable" in short body Mooney's and a GREAT way to rapidly lose altitude if/when needed.

I did not EVER slip my Missile and would not slip my E down low below 80MPH in landing configuration.  I 100% agree with you that go arounds are the way to go and an opportunity to fly a bit longer which I love to do.

So far as wrong generalization.

‘Read the last line of the apparent Kromer article, that seems to be a pretty generalized statement to me. I’d quote it but the software won’t let me.

 

[Echo]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

So far as wrong generalization.

‘Read the last line of the apparent Kromer article, that seems to be a pretty generalized statement to me. I’d quote it but the software won’t let me.

 

I am talking about safety doing slips in a short body.  NOT doing approaches.  On second thought, you are always right.  Nevermind, because you just are not picking up what I am laying down.  Others hopefully will.

[jlunseth]

I fly a 231, which is one of the aircraft that was discussed in Bob Kromer’s article, in fact it was a comment from a 231 driver that led to Mr. Kromer’s testing. That information came out a very long time ago, I remember it from 12 or more years ago, which is about when I joined this forum. The statements Mr. Kromer made were very clear to me. Don’t slip a turbo Mooney at less than 85 knots. There is the possibility of elevator buffeting and a nose down pitching moment, which you don’t want on landing. Given that landing speed for a normal landing is 75 in my aircraft, and for short field 70 or even less, and that we have gear and speed brakes to slow the plane, I don’t see the point in a side slip for our aircraft. Mine will land in well under 1000 feet without any side slip. 

The suggestion that it takes a “real pilot” to do a side slip, or that it has somehow become a lost skill in modern instruction is irresponsible. It could induce someone who has just started flying these aircraft to do the slip to show they are a “real pilot.” Let’s do what we do best in this forum and get the actual, real live information out there instead of rumors and innuendo.

A few years ago I attended a Mooney PPP at Olathe and got to fly with Bud Winslow, who is still teaching for them. Bud, himself, flies a 231, or did at the time. We spent the first day flying instrument procedures in “thunderstormy” conditions, not the really big boomers, but building conditions all day. When we came back to Olathe to land there was an approaching “big boomer” just north of the active runway, which was north-south. We needed to get down on the ground or spend the night somewhere else. We missed the first approach because for some reason the glideslope did not come in on the ILS, and my attempt to convert to a localizer approach did not work. The approach was from the south and a circle to land was required. Both the panel XM weather and our own eyes showed that there was a wall of water just north of the approach end of the runway. It would have been foolhardy to fly into that black wall for anything like a normal approach. So at the runway end I powered up to make a low level steep turn without stalling. At the end of the turn we were over the runway at circle to land altitude, about 600 AGL. How to get down before we ran out of runway? I pulled the throttle back, put out full flaps, speed brakes, gear down, and dropped the airspeed to 70 or even lower for a descent in basically slow flight conditions. Remember, if you are below best glide you increas the descent rate over a horizontal distance, which in this instance is just what you want. We helicoptered down, made the runway easily, and Bud reminded me to put in just a little power for the flare, as in a soft field landing, to soften the touchdown. It worked out perfectly, nice landing, didn’t come close to using the full length of the runway. We both congratulated each other. So a “real pilot” should know everything the aircraft is capable of, and be prepared to use it to create a safe outcome. 

I have, on rare occasions, used a side slip high up in an approach where I have gotten a “cram down” from ATC, but given the 85 kt limit for side slips you still have to find a way to slow the plane for landing, they are just not well suited to the 231 unless you have reason to land at a higher than normal landing speed, which is another story. Maybe take Mr. Kromer’s advice and stay out of trouble, there are other ways.

[Z W]

I also don't use slips in the M20K, having read Mr. Kromer's article and the warnings in the POH.  I have slipped it at high speeds (100 KIAS) to make an approach, and that works fine.  But it's more effective to pull the power, drop the gear, pop the speed brakes, put in some flaps, and point the nose down.  It's very easy to get a 1500 FPM descent in that configuration at 100 KIAS.  Pull up at the desired altitude and you're quickly back at 75-80 KIAS for a standard approach.

Alternatively, you can pull the power, drop the gear, put in full flaps, and raise the nose to 75-80 KIAS for a stable and sustained 1000 FPM descent "behind the power curve".  Just don't forget to lower the nose and gain airspeed or add some power back in to come out of that descent, as you may not have enough extra energy to flare out of it for a smooth landing if you're heavy.

If neither of those is sufficient, I prefer to just go around.  If 1,000-1,500 feet a minute is not enough, you may as well fly a pattern or circle to land.

If the runway is so short you have to slip to make it, I'll leave that to other pilots.