Rough running IO-360

[RideOrFly]

21 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

It looks like it was trapped and old. The source of water is one issue. How it gets trapped is another. 
 

Were the tanks recently patched, repaired or resealed?

There are many channels and ribs in the tanks with drain passages. The sump drains also have some lower drain holes. A careless repair can plug them and trap “dam” water. Also if it has incorrect sump drains it can trap water. 
 

The fact that it looks so old is a little concerning--that tank was just drained and had a new sump installed a week ago. The last reseal was in 2003 if I recall correctly.

[RideOrFly]

18 minutes ago, EricJ said:

When I've had water in the fuel it often looks like that.

Makes me feel a little better 

I've never had a drop of water in the left tank so I know I can rely on that one. 

Hopefully the new o-rings and making sure the drain holes are patent will be enough.

[Shadrach]

6 minutes ago, RideOrFly said:

The fact that it looks so old is a little concerning--that tank was just drained and had a new sump installed a week ago. The last reseal was in 2003 if I recall correctly.

Is it hangared?

edit. I can see the the tie down in the background.

[RideOrFly]

Just now, Shadrach said:

Is it hangared?

No. It was before I bought it, but wait lists for hangars around here are years and years. 

I just noticed that you're at HGR--Plane Care was the shop that fixed the drain holes before I bought the plane. 

[Nokomis449]

Here's a pic of how some line workers think a Mooney fuel cap should be seated.  Regardless of fuel cap O-ring condition, a cap in this position will collect and dump rain into the tank.  I've mentioned before that once in Kansas City the Mooney was tied down, fueled by the FBO, caps left in this position, then sat outside while days of heavy rain passed thru.   A gallon or more of water was sumped from each tank, which I figure was enough to just barely kill me if not discovered during preflight.  Since then I always wait and refuel before departure when traveling.

[PT20J]

I'm not saying this means anything, but it is just a data point. I have sumped thousands of fuel tanks over 40 years of flying everything from a C-150 to a DC-3. I can only remember finding water a handful of times and it was always a teaspoonful or less. I only got a few ounces once in Fairbanks AK in a Cherokee. Never did figure out why, but suspect it came from the fuel truck. The few times I saw water it was clear. And, most of these airplanes were tied down outside. I've concluded that water in the fuel is not at all a normal situation.

[Shadrach]

2 minutes ago, Nokomis449 said:

Here's a pic of how some line workers think a Mooney fuel cap should be seated.  Regardless of fuel cap O-ring condition, a cap in this position will collect and dump rain into the tank.  I've mentioned before that once in Kansas City the Mooney was tied down, fueled by the FBO, caps left in this position, then sat outside while days of heavy rain passed thru.   A gallon or more of water was sumped from each tank, which I figure was enough to just barely kill me if not discovered during preflight.  Since then I always wait and refuel before departure when traveling.

That’s happened to me twice. I am very hesitant to allow my plane to be fueled in my absence.

[Shadrach]

2 minutes ago, PT20J said:

I'm not saying this means anything, but it is just a data point. I have sumped thousands of fuel tanks over 40 years of flying everything from a C-150 to a DC-3. I can only remember finding water a handful of times and it was always a teaspoonful or less. I only got a few ounces once in Fairbanks AK in a Cherokee. Never did figure out why, but suspect it came from the fuel truck. The few times I saw water it was clear. And, most of these airplanes were tied down outside. I've concluded that water in the fuel is not at all a normal situation.

This mirrors my experience save for some of the more interesting hardware. A teaspoon is a lot in my book. I’ve never had enough to separate into two levels, just a few clear blobs at bottom of the jar.

[RideOrFly]

13 minutes ago, Nokomis449 said:

Here's a pic of how some line workers think a Mooney fuel cap should be seated.  Regardless of fuel cap O-ring condition, a cap in this position will collect and dump rain into the tank.  I've mentioned before that once in Kansas City the Mooney was tied down, fueled by the FBO, caps left in this position, then sat outside while days of heavy rain passed thru.   A gallon or more of water was sumped from each tank, which I figure was enough to just barely kill me if not discovered during preflight.  Since then I always wait and refuel before departure when traveling.

I got similar treatment at BNA the one time I went in there. Fortunately it was just a quick turn and it wasn't raining so no harm. But for the cost of that fuel, one really would expect better. 

[Shadrach]

30 minutes ago, RideOrFly said:

No. It was before I bought it, but wait lists for hangars around here are years and years. 

I just noticed that you're at HGR--Plane Care was the shop that fixed the drain holes before I bought the plane. 

They should have the expertise. They were an MSC up until 2013…about 4 owners ago. Still some staff from the old days. Where was the plane based before it came to be yours?

[RideOrFly]

25 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

They should have the expertise. They were an MSC up until 2013…about 4 owners ago. Still some staff from the old days. Where was the plane based before it came to be yours?

I just looked back at the logbook entry…seems legit. There were two holes blocked and opened up. 
 

The plane was based at HEF before I got it. 

[N201MKTurbo]

2 hours ago, RideOrFly said:

Went out to the airport for a little while this afternoon. I've always given the wings a little shake at the start of the preflight. Today, I shook the crap out of them a couple of times and then bounced the tail up and down a bit. This was the first sample from the right tank. Left tank had no water at all and the gascolater sample was clean as well (taking off on the left tank for the foreseeable future). I took the right fuel cap apart and the inner o-ring does look a bit worn. I recently ordered replacements so will plan to fix that. Any ideas why the water is so dirty? 

Gasoline doesn’t dissolve dirt very well. Water does. Have you ever noticed that when you wash your engine with solvent, it takes all the oil and grease off of it, but when it dries it has a coating of dirt. If you wash it with soap and water afterwards, it easily takes all the dirt off. The same thing happens in your tank. The years of dirt that gets in your tank, sticks to the surfaces of the tank. The water washes it out.

[N201MKTurbo]

2 hours ago, EricJ said:

When I've had water in the fuel it often looks like that.

I think we have more dirt in our atmosphere. Our airplanes probably carry a higher dirt load than other places.

[EricJ]

13 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I think we have more dirt in our atmosphere. Our airplanes probably carry a higher dirt load than other places.

You should look in the tail of my airplane sometime.   Parked outside in southern Nevada for twenty years it accumulated a little something from every dust storm that ever came by.

The IA that did the four-month annual on my airplane just before I bought it knew that the fuel cap o-rings were crap, and told me so, but didn't change them because he didn't have any on hand (for four months).   So every storm that came by added a little water to the tanks, which I think we had mostly or completely out of it by the time you took it to Maxwell's in TX.   I did my insurance check out in it there and when we were done flying the tanks had leaked fuel out around the caps and stained the tops of the wings.   So, overnight, the FBO "washed it thoroughly" to get the stains off and I think added a bunch more water to the tanks in the process, which took a fair amount of time to get completely out.

I later put fluorosilicone o-rings on the fuel caps and haven't seen any water in it since, knock on wood.

Definitely not something to take lightly.

[Pinecone]

17 hours ago, PT20J said:

I'm not saying this means anything, but it is just a data point. I have sumped thousands of fuel tanks over 40 years of flying everything from a C-150 to a DC-3. I can only remember finding water a handful of times and it was always a teaspoonful or less. I only got a few ounces once in Fairbanks AK in a Cherokee. Never did figure out why, but suspect it came from the fuel truck. The few times I saw water it was clear. And, most of these airplanes were tied down outside. I've concluded that water in the fuel is not at all a normal situation.

Most I ever saw was from a C-182 that was tied down outside.  This was with the old caps and the wrinkled bladders.  I had read about it and was talking to the owner.  He said had no issues with water, but was willing to have me show him.

I shook the wings a good bit, we waited about 10 minutes and got over a quart of water out of the first tank.  Owner was stunned.

[Will.iam]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

Most I ever saw was from a C-182 that was tied down outside.  This was with the old caps and the wrinkled bladders.  I had read about it and was talking to the owner.  He said had no issues with water, but was willing to have me show him.

I shook the wings a good bit, we waited about 10 minutes and got over a quart of water out of the first tank.  Owner was stunned.

A quart of water I would be stunned too. When you shake the wing how hard do you shake it and is it up and down or back-and-forth?

[Pinecone]

I did both.

[PT20J]

Plugged holes in the ribs and leaking fuel caps are the subject of AD 85-24-03. Although the text of the AD states it must be done once, the section on fuel caps references SB M20-229(A) which states that the o-rings need to be visually inspected every 100 hrs/annually, so I know that many shops interpret this to be a requirement of the AD. Whether it is or not, it's a good idea.

The fluorosilicone o-rings probably last forever. But, since the small one on the shaft cannot be inspected without disassembly, I do the pressure test every year. All you need is about a 3' length of vinyl tubing that will fit tightly over the tank vent and a spray bottle of soapy water (I just use Fantastik spray cleaner) and blow into the hose with your mouth to slightly pressurize the tank while spraying the soapy water on the cap and watch for bubbles.

I also keep the o-rings lubricated per the SB: Vasoline on the big one, Tri-Flow on the shaft. Tri-Flow also works well on the gascolator and fuel selector shafts.

[A64Pilot]

On 1/25/2024 at 9:29 AM, Shadrach said:

I don’t think it’s paranoia. From what I’ve read, there is a measurable increase in bottom end issues in engines that have had cylinders removed. 

The article below has some interesting opinions of both Mike Busch and an experienced DER.

I would not be opposed to it if there was a good reason. It would take a hell of an oil leak to qualify as a good reason.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2020/march/pilot/savvy-maintenance-risky-business

To follow up on this, attached photo is from last years IA renewal, it’s what Lycoming says must be done on cylinder removal. I need to source four junk cylinders to cut the base off of, I’m not even going to ask what Lycoming gets for these plates.

 

[takair]

3 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

To follow up on this, attached photo is from last years IA renewal, it’s what Lycoming says must be done on cylinder removal. I need to source four junk cylinders to cut the base off of, I’m not even going to ask what Lycoming gets for these plates.

 

On the narrow deck engine, I just use the cylinder hold down clamps that sit on the cylinder mounting flange.  Does not help on wide deck….but if you have the narrow deck it is an option.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

To follow up on this, attached photo is from last years IA renewal, it’s what Lycoming says must be done on cylinder removal. I need to source four junk cylinders to cut the base off of, I’m not even going to ask what Lycoming gets for these plates.

 

What a bargain at $1530 each. That would be a reasonable price for four. If made in any quantity,  I’d guess those are marked up about 1000% over gross.  
Why not just have some made localy out of mild steel?  My local CNC guy has fabricated larger pieces for me with 90° bends and precise drilled bolt hole patterns for >$150.  I betting you could have identical plates made for <$200 each.. 

[A64Pilot]

I’m thinking and may be wrong but a good engine builder should have a pile of scrap cylinders.

Take a band saw and cut the bottom off of them, or Gasp put a couple of fender washers on the stud and torque it down.

Or as you say have someone water jet a few out of plate.

Or if your replacing the jugs with new, just replace them one at a time and forget the plates.

I think the idea is to keep the two halves pulled together, and you can get as complex as you like doing that.

Sometimes I think a manufacturer charges outrageous prices for something because in truth they don’t want to get into the tool business. They want people to build their own.

The few special tools we had for a Thrush, I sold them at a high price, and refunded the purchase price on their return.

They used to lend them out, and didn’t get many returns, but when I started selling them I got all of them back in a timely manner.

[A64Pilot]

2 hours ago, takair said:

On the narrow deck engine, I just use the cylinder hood down clamps that sit on the cylinder mounting flange.  Does not help on wide deck….but if you have the narrow deck it is an option.

Makes sense

[PT20J]

I don’t think anyone buys Lycoming tools. Lycoming has a tool rental program.

[EricJ]

$52 ea.    We used these or something very similar in A&P school.   It's just a plate.   Nothing special about it.

https://ryanaircrafttools.com/products/1598

Or $39/ea:

https://flyboyaccessories.com/products/cylinder-torque-plate-for-lycoming-engines