Prebuy / Logbook Help Needed

[FADEC]

Hi everyone,

I am looking for some help on a small administrative issue that has been encountered with buying my first airplane.  If anyone has the following Serial number (L-19209-51A) IO-360-A3B6D installed in their M20J, could you reach out to me? 

Here is the issue during the pre-buy, it was noticed that the most recent engine logbook’s cover page has the wrong engine Serial number (L-19209-51A) listed.  There are only two entries listed in this logbook, the first is dated 9-5-2020 and has the correct installed serial number RL-3967-51E, the second and last entry which is a field overhaul has the incorrect serial number.   

The shop where the airplane is currently at has reached out to Lycoming and verified that both Serial Numbers belong to IO-360-A3B6D engines.  Unfortunately, the A&P / IA who made both entries passed away.  The current shop is trying to find a way to prove that the entry was made in error before crossing threw the incorrect SN and writing the correct SN. 

Thanks for the help.

Andy

[Montreal]

You mentioned the shop verified the SN. Would be a good idea to speak to Lycoming directly. 

https://www.lycoming.com/core-history-search
1-800-258-3279

[FADEC]

Montreal,

The shop did call Lycoming direct.  That’s when the shop was told that SN is actually a IO-360-A36D, even thought the initial search come up empty.

 

Andy

[N201MKTurbo]

Did you look at the data plate to see what is actually in the plane?

[A64Pilot]

As there is zero documentation for installation or removal of the incorrect serial number engine I think making a logbook entry stating that the serial number was incorrect and had been corrected is the way to go.

‘I don’t know what finding out who has the incorrect serial number engine would do?

Call FSDO they aren’t evil, ask their advice. I bet lunch they will tell you to correct the book to what’s in the airplane and that would be the end of it.

Edited July 16, 2023 by A64Pilot

[FADEC]

23 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Did you look at the data plate to see what is actually in the plane?

Yes SN on the engine data plate match the SN of the first Engine Logbook, and the first entry of the 2nd engine logbook.

[FADEC]

24 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

As there is zero documentation for installation or removal of the incorrect serial number engine I think making a logbook entry stating that the serial number was incorrect and had been corrected is the way to go.

‘I don’t know what finding out who has the incorrect serial number engine would do?

Call FSDO they aren’t evil, ask their advice. I bet lunch they will tell you to correct the book to what’s in the airplane and that would be the end of it.

From what the shop said, the removal, Overhaul and reinstall write up has the wrong SN, so they would consider that work null and void.

 

Andy

[A64Pilot]

So, suppose that I have that serial number engine? I don’t but suppose I did, what does that prove? The overhaul paperwork still has the wrong serial number.

To play this game the argument is show me paperwork with the correct serial number or it didn’t happen and that paperwork doesn’t exist apparently

My opinion is if you really want the airplane buy it, maybe if you feel the need use this to justify a lower price. Or of course run away if your uncomfortable.

If I was sure it had been overhauled I’d buy it, the issue is does this affect re-sale? Yes it might.

Change the serial number yourself, just line it thru, put the correct one in, or as has been brought up before fill out a new logbook and start using it and after a year toss the old one, it only has two entries I believe you said. The catch as I understand it us if asked you can’t show overhaul documentation that has the correct serial number and that doesn’t change if you find the engine that matches the serial number in your paperwork.

Now that I think about it I believe you may be able to search the aircraft registration database by engine serial number, I know it lists the engine serial number anyway.

But I don’t know what finding the engine does.

Lastly because someone will bring this up, but it’s the sellers problem not yours if that means anything

 

 

[A64Pilot]

Seems you can search by aircraft serial number but not engine serial number

[N201MKTurbo]

I would just cross it out with a note that said “??? Huh, doesn’t belong in this logbook” and sign it as the airplane owner. Nobody will ever care. From a legal standpoint, it doesn’t mean jack. You are only required to keep maintenance records till the next annual. From a practical standpoint, It is a lot easier to prove things if the original sign offs can be found. Plus the world puts value on maintenance records far beyond what is legally required.

[Fly Boomer]

34 minutes ago, FADEC said:

From what the shop said, the removal, Overhaul and reinstall write up has the wrong SN, so they would consider that work null and void.

 

Andy

Surely the log entry can't be the only paperwork generated by an overhaul.  I have a mountain of other paperwork.  Some stapled in the log, and some loose.

[A64Pilot]

If he says entry is invalid then that means engine wasn’t overhauled.

I’d correct the serial number or have owner correct it and possibly make a logbook entry saying serial number had been corrected.

Problem is, it’s a little flaky no matter what and if in a year or two he goes to sell it could be an issue that affects sale, just as it is now.

Most conservative response is walk, find an airplane without these issues

[N201MKTurbo]

2 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Surely the log entry can't be the only paperwork generated by an overhaul.  I have a mountain of other paperwork.  Some stapled in the log, and some loose.

There isn’t anything in the regs that says all the maintenance records must go in that sacred book….

[A64Pilot]

4 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Surely the log entry can't be the only paperwork generated by an overhaul.  I have a mountain of other paperwork.  Some stapled in the log, and some loose.

I was thinking that too, usually it’s a bunch of 8130’s for parts that were sent out, like case crank, rods, cylinders etc. but does any of it have engine serial number? I don’t think it does.

On edit, maybe if the case was sent off it would.

Edited July 16, 2023 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

There isn’t anything in the regs that says all the maintenance records must go in that sacred book….

I think the catch isn’t whether or not it’s airworthy, my opinion is if the engine passes 100 hour it is, but I think the point is how does it affect aircraft value?

[Fly Boomer]

1 minute ago, N201MKTurbo said:

There isn’t anything in the regs that says all the maintenance records must go in that sacred book….

Hence, I would examine everything that is not in that sacred book.

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, A64Pilot said:

I think the catch isn’t whether or not it’s airworthy, my opinion is if the engine passes 100 hour it is, but I think the point is how does it affect aircraft value?

That’s a whole different topic than what is required, and depends totally on the buyer.

[A64Pilot]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

That’s a whole different topic than what is required, and depends totally on the buyer.

Yes, but it really important I think.

‘I think the shop doing the pre-buy is earning their money and pointing out potential problems 

Edited July 16, 2023 by A64Pilot

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, A64Pilot said:

Yes, but it really important I think.

Sure, but, does one log enter invalidate another? Especially if it doesn’t even apply to this aircraft or engine? People make mistakes and write in the wrong logbook.

[Hank]

6 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Sure, but, does one log enter invalidate another? Especially if it doesn’t even apply to this aircraft or engine? People make mistakes and write in the wrong logbook.

In this case, it very well could. Did the overhauler put the wrong serial number in this logbook, or did he accurately record an overhaul of Engine #1 by accident into the logbook for Engine #2? Was Engine #2 (in this airplane being checked) actually overhauled? That is the question, and it can only be definitively answered with documentation generated during the overhaul of the engine.

[N201MKTurbo]

If it bugs you that much, get a new logbook, literally cut the correct entry out and past it into the new logbook. No different than sticking a sticker from a mechanic into your log book. 

[N201MKTurbo]

2 minutes ago, Hank said:

In this case, it very well could. Did the overhauler put the wrong serial number in this logbook, or did he accurately record an overhaul of Engine #1 by accident into the logbook for Engine #2? Was Engine #2 (in this airplane being checked) actually overhauled? That is the question, and it can only be definitively answered with documentation generated during the overhaul of the engine.

But it is engine #1 in the airplane. Who cares what happened to engine #2.

[Hank]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

But it is engine #1 in the airplane. Who cares what happened to engine #2.

I wasn't clear. "Engine #1" is the serial number in the logbook. Engine #2 is the engine mounted in the plane. The pre-overhauled engine has the same serial number as Engine #2. The buyer should care very much what happened to this engine, specifically was it actually overhauled? The logbook shows overhaul work done for an engine not in the airplane.

[N201MKTurbo]

Does the engine look like it has been overhauled in the last few years? Are they claiming that it has been overhauled?

[EricJ]

59 minutes ago, FADEC said:

From what the shop said, the removal, Overhaul and reinstall write up has the wrong SN, so they would consider that work null and void.

 

Andy

It doesn't really matter what the shop thinks.   The owner is responsible for the record keeping, so what the owners say goes as long as no regs are being broken.   As previously mentioned, typical maintenance records are not required to be kept for more than a year.   IMHO the shop would be taking more risks by "correcting" a previous entry than just letting it go.   If they do "correct" it, they should sign that correction and take responsibility for it, which you shouldn't let them do imho, because then they'll have more leverage.    It sounds to me like they may just be hunting for things to spend time on to charge somebody, as it doesn't seem to have much basis in regulatory requirement.   If it wasn't a record that they made, and it's obvious what the correct disposition is (it's not the correct S/N), I'm struggling to see why they'd care.