GTN 650/750 approach

[HXG]

12 hours ago, Vance Harral said:

That is a great tip, thanks!

I often use this shortcut. Just make sure you tap the active leg line ABOVE the CDI (not the CDI itself) to open the flight plan. I should have been more specific in my post which is now corrected. 

[donkaye]

3 hours ago, toto said:

This is very interesting. I have held off doing the Xi switch because the avionics shop said it's basically higher resolution with the same functionality. I hadn't realized that there were significant changes in the interface or workflow. 

As Garmin mentioned in the initial release of the Xi, with the extra processor speed new opportunities would open  up for more advanced features.  This first software update added some new features not available on the legacy GTN.  Another one is the addition of the glide range ring with an arrow stream pointing to the best choice of "gliding to" runways.  Of  course,  Garmin Pilot already has that, but not the "arrow stream to the best airport for gliding to.

[PT20J]

5 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Agreed. It's actually worse than that since you do have to "activate an approach" in order to fly it (I have a friend this happened to recently)  but you never need to select "Activate Approach." Fortunately, there are many out there preaching that you never have to use that "Activate Approach" menu item.

I'm not aware of any need to "activate an approach" in order to fly it, unless you mean making an approach waypoint or leg active which is not any different than flying between waypoints on a flight plan. Some people refer to the approach going "active" (not my favorite terminology) when the GPS switches to approach mode within 2 nm of the FAF, but this doesn't require any action other than monitoring to make sure it occurs.

Skip

[Jim Peace]

5 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Agreed. It's actually worse than that since you do have to "activate an approach" in order to fly it (I have a friend this happened to recently)  but you never need to select "Activate Approach." Fortunately, there are many out there preaching that you never have to use that "Activate Approach" menu item.

well now it is as clear as mud......I hope its VMC for the rest of my GA flying

[midlifeflyer]

8 minutes ago, PT20J said:

I'm not aware of any need to "activate an approach" in order to fly it, unless you mean making an approach waypoint or leg active

And in your mind, "Activate Leg" and "Direct → Activate" Capital ''A') within the approach sequence is not activating (small "a") the approach? 

7 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

well now it is as clear as mud......I hope its VMC for the rest of my GA flying

I was just pointing out the problem with the terminology - using the English word activate to mean both the cause (pressing an "Activate" button or menu option) and the result (activating the sequence) you wind up with potential confusion.    

Personally, I try to avoid the word "activate" unless I am talking about the function Try this to clear the mud:

1. Tapping/selecting  "Activate Approach" sends you direct to the transition you selected when you loaded the approach, even if it is behind you.

2. Making an approach waypoint or leg the active waypoint (no getting around that one)  initiates automatic sequencing of the approach.  

 

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, Jim Peace said:

well now it is as clear as mud......I hope its VMC for the rest of my GA flying

Let's try again, then.  I'll usually ask for the approach I want, and am either told to "Expect it" or given another approach to "Expect".  If I don't like what I''m told to "Expect", I push nicely for what I want.  Usually I get what I want.

 Once I know the approach I'll be doing, I'll 'Load" it.  I usually ask for the "Full" approach because it shortens the final and has all legs as a part of it.  If I'm given vectors,  the whole approach is still there and when I see where the final vector will intercept the final approach course, I'll activate that leg.  When I'm in the approach waypoints "box" (my term) the approach is active, no "Activate approach" menu item necessary.

If I'm in the enroute phase of flight and told to proceed "Direct to" my IAF.  I have a choice.  The choices are identical, only with different names.  I can highlight the IAF and hit the "direct to" button, or I can push "Activate the Approach" icon.  Both take me directly to the IAF and, since the waypoint is inside the approach "box" the approach is active.  Basically the "Activate approach" icon is a shortcut to the IAF to begin the approach.  I usually just go "Direct to" the IAF and skip the "Activate approach" icon, since they both do the same thing.

[PT20J]

41 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

And in your mind, "Activate Leg" and "Direct → Activate" Capital ''A') within the approach sequence is not activating (small "a") the approach? 

Ah, now I see what you were getting at. Certainly you have to get the GPS navigating on the approach somehow. My point was simply that there is nothing special that you need to do to “activate” an approach. From the pilot’s standpoint, it’s just another sequence of waypoints. 

Skip

[Vance Harral]

5 hours ago, HXG said:

I often use this shortcut. Just make sure you tap the active leg line ABOVE the CDI (not the CDI itself) to open the flight plan.

Yes this initially confused me.  But then I understood you were talking about the CDI *indicator* (and the waypoint sequence right above it) as opposed to the CDI *button*.

This is one area where the extra screen real-estate of the 750 is an advantage.  The Default Nav page you get by pressing and holding HOME on the 750 shows the CDI indicator and flight plan sequence, soft keys for Menu/CDI/OBS/Zoom/etc, and also a map.  That means you're only one click away from the Flight Plan page using the "click the CDI" trick.  On the 650, however, the Default Nav page doesn't have enough screen real-estate to show the map.  So instead, Garmin gives you a soft key on the Default Nav page that takes you to the map, and a "Back" key on that map page that takes you back to the Default Nav page.  Unfortunately, the CDI indicator and flight plan sequence isn't shown on the map page, so you can't use the trick.  If you're looking at the moving map on a 650, the flight plan page is always at least two clicks away.

 

[Bob - S50]

14 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

Yes this initially confused me.  But then I understood you were talking about the CDI *indicator* (and the waypoint sequence right above it) as opposed to the CDI *button*.

This is one area where the extra screen real-estate of the 750 is an advantage.  The Default Nav page you get by pressing and holding HOME on the 750 shows the CDI indicator and flight plan sequence, soft keys for Menu/CDI/OBS/Zoom/etc, and also a map.  That means you're only one click away from the Flight Plan page using the "click the CDI" trick.  On the 650, however, the Default Nav page doesn't have enough screen real-estate to show the map.  So instead, Garmin gives you a soft key on the Default Nav page that takes you to the map, and a "Back" key on that map page that takes you back to the Default Nav page.  Unfortunately, the CDI indicator and flight plan sequence isn't shown on the map page, so you can't use the trick.  If you're looking at the moving map on a 650, the flight plan page is always at least two clicks away.

 

Unless you use your GTN650 to control a remote transponder, you can change the function of that area of the screen.  That is, the area below the frequencies that displays the transponder code.  You can change it to take you to any page you like.  For example you could set it to Flight Plan.  In that case, when you are on the default page you could have the 'map' button that is provided by that page and a 'flight plan' button to take you directly to the flight plan.

[PT20J]

44 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Let's try again, then.  I'll usually ask for the approach I want, and am either told to "Expect it" or given another approach to "Expect".  If I don't like what I''m told to "Expect", I push nicely for what I want.  Usually I get what I want.

 Once I know the approach I'll be doing, I'll 'Load" it.  I usually ask for the "Full" approach because it shortens the final and has all legs as a part of it.  If I'm given vectors,  the whole approach is still there and when I see where the final vector will intercept the final approach course, I'll activate that leg.  When I'm in the approach waypoints "box" (my term) the approach is active, no "Activate approach" menu item necessary.

If I'm in the enroute phase of flight and told to proceed "Direct to" my IAF.  I have a choice.  The choices are identical, only with different names.  I can highlight the IAF and hit the "direct to" button, or I can push "Activate the Approach" icon.  Both take me directly to the IAF and, since the waypoint is inside the approach "box" the approach is active.  Basically the "Activate approach" icon is a shortcut to the IAF to begin the approach.  I usually just go "Direct to" the IAF and skip the "Activate approach" icon, since they both do the same thing.

That is a very clear explanation of how the GTN works, how to use it, and how to get what you want from ATC.

 

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

Ah, now I see what you were getting at. Certainly you have to get the GPS navigating on the approach somehow. My point was simply that there is nothing special that you need to do to “activate” an approach. From the pilot’s standpoint, it’s just another sequence of waypoints. 

Skip

Agreed. The only issue is, one can end up not doing anything to initiate approach sequencing. That's kind of what happened to someone. The approach was loaded and there were vectors. The final vector was to an IF. The  pilot flew to it but never made it or the following leg active. The result was no GPS course guidance for the approach.

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, Vance Harral said:

If you're looking at the moving map on a 650, the flight plan page is always at least two clicks away.

 

With the 650Xi that his no longer the case.  Not with the 750Xi. Just a couple of knob twists to highlight flight plan and you're there.

[donkaye]

Just now, donkaye said:

With the 650Xi that his no longer the case.  Nor with the 750Xi. Just a couple of knob twists to highlight flight plan and you're there.  I'm liking the Xi Series more and more.

 

[Browncbr1]

If you’re direct to the FAF and then load the approach, just highlight the FAF that appears in the approach sequence and hit direct.

[PT20J]

38 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

If you’re direct to the FAF and then load the approach, just highlight the FAF that appears in the approach sequence and hit direct.

Did you mean IAF?  I don’t believe you should ever be direct to the FAF (unless you’ve already intercepted the final approach course). ATC should vector you to intercept outside the approach gate.

Skip

[midlifeflyer]

13 hours ago, PT20J said:

Did you mean IAF?  I don’t believe you should ever be direct to the FAF (unless you’ve already intercepted the final approach course). ATC should vector you to intercept outside the approach gate.

Skip

You are correct.

Trivia: There is one  exception. Interestingly,  according to the  .65, "If specifically requested by the pilot, aircraft may be vectored to intercept the final approach course inside the approach gate but no closer than the final approach fix." But that doesn't apply to RNAV approaches, 

 

[Browncbr1]

11 hours ago, PT20J said:

Did you mean IAF?  I don’t believe you should ever be direct to the FAF (unless you’ve already intercepted the final approach course). ATC should vector you to intercept outside the approach gate.

Skip

I agree, but that wasn’t the OP question.  The question was will the gtn go into approach mode if direct to the FAF.   Indeed vectors to final should be activated or IAF if an IFR approach.   Personally, I would never use approach fixes in my flight plan unless an approach is loaded.  It’s just a recipe for getting screwed up 

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Browncbr1 said:

The question was will the gtn go into approach mode if direct to the FAF.

..and the answer to that is, yes, but not automatically.

Basically, it follows the guidance that straight in from an FAF is not proper procedure, plus the fact that many autopilots will not capture the glideslope/path from that close in.

One can play with it with the Garmin trainer but, if you punch in direct to the FAF, the unit will send you there, but go into SUSP mode.  You can specifically tell it to sequence to the approach anyway by unsuspending it.

[Bob - S50]

2 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

I agree, but that wasn’t the OP question.  The question was will the gtn go into approach mode if direct to the FAF.   Indeed vectors to final should be activated or IAF if an IFR approach.   Personally, I would never use approach fixes in my flight plan unless an approach is loaded.  It’s just a recipe for getting screwed up 

Like almost everything else in life, it depends.  If I'm going out to fly practice approaches at TIW, OLM, and then come back home. I will usually put transition fixes between airports.  Something like this:

S50

KTIW

BOSTO

KOLM

CIDUG

S50

Then when I'm done flying the approach at KTIW, I can request direct BOSTO for the RNAV 17 at KOLM.  When they give me cleared as requested I can select it and go direct.  While I'm headed to BOSTO I can clean up the flightplan and get it ready for the approach.

I could do the same thing for my alternate.  Only problem with that is it messes up the distance to destination display.  But if I'm getting close to my destination, the weather isn't looking as good as forecast, and I think I might need to divert; I'd go ahead and add the transition fix for my desired approach at the alternate, followed by the alternate to my flightplan.

[Sue Bon]

I'm bringing this thread back because I have a related question that is just barely touched in the post above. What if I want to divert to a different airport? Let's say that I make an approach, go missed, and then want to divert. Can I just add the new airport to the bottom of the flight plan? That was not possible in the 430. Is it possible in the 650? 

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, Sue Bon said:

I'm bringing this thread back because I have a related question that is just barely touched in the post above. What if I want to divert to a different airport? Let's say that I make an approach, go missed, and then want to divert. Can I just add the new airport to the bottom of the flight plan? That was not possible in the 430. Is it possible in the 650? 

That's one of the great features added to the GTN series a number of system updates ago.  IF YOU ARE ON THE MISSED APPROACH, select PROCEDURES, Change the airport identifier to the alternate airport you want to go, selective the approach you want, then the transition, then go direct to one of the approach waypoints on the transition when you want to.  The missed approach from your original airport becomes the enroute part of the flight plan so you can continue to fly it until you want to go to the other airport.  For example, if you are in a hold as part of the original missed approach, you can stay in the hold and the AP will continue to fly it until you go to your alternate.

It's important to note that you can't do the above before you are on a portion of the missed approach.  You have to be on the missed approach of the original airport before putting in your alternate as above.

Because of this feature, I can ping pong off of approaches to numerous airports close to each other when practicing without undo "overload" pressure.  For example, I can do an approach into KSNS,  go to the Hold on the missed, set up an approach to KWVI, start the missed, set up an approach into KOAR, start the missed, then set up an approach into KMRY and go missed, then head back to KSJC and do an approach into there.  I did this a couple of weeks ago all in IMC conditions, and was barely tired after landing back in San Jose.  That wouldn't have been the case without this feature.

[PeteMc]

To clarify slightly what @donkaye said, you don't have to do it while going missed.  You can go to the Hold and sit there as you decide your options as you're still "in the missed" as he said.  Then you can pick the Approach you want and hit the Direct To the IAF or whatever other fix ATC gives you.  No unloading, reloading, etc.  Just pick the new Approach.

 

[201Steve]

What is THIS @Vance Harral

 

[Vance Harral]

33 minutes ago, 201Steve said:

What is THIS @Vance Harral

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking about.

The thing right below the landing gear switch is just a cheap, 3-up kitchen timer velcro'd to the panel.

The thing that says "0" with the green buttons is a Sensorcon carbon monoxide detector, also velcro'd to the panel.  Lots of us here on Mooneyspace have them, thanks to bold work by @DanM20C.

If you're asking what my hand is on, that's the throttle in my airplane.  I do understand it may look quite foreign to most Mooney drivers, who are crippled with pedestrian push/pull engine controls, being not fortunate enough to enjoy the superior throttle quadrant that was installed in select, 1970s era Mooneys. 

[hubcap]

Is there an STC that will let you put an 8-ball on the throttle? That would be really cool. They did that on muscle cars in the 1970’s.