Hank Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 I just posed the "where to reseal" question over on the Mapa list, and the response was overwhelming to fly to Wilmar and let Paul Beck do it. He quoted a little under $6000 a couple of months ago for my 52-gal tanks, vs. what seems to be ~$10,000 to get 64-gallon bladders installed [since the Oshkosh show specials are now over]. The difference will buy a lot of avgas and accessories! Here are my thoughts about bladders: 1. There are ADs affecting them. 2. Typical costs are ~$10,000 installed, not including my own travel. 3. They hold an additional 12 gallons, and that makes for 100 lbs. total extra weight when full. THAT affects me. 4. Like wet wings, they last better when kept nearly full. See Point #3 above. Being a charter member of the CB Club, I'm going for a strip and reseal! Only to the tundra instead of to the beach . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Economically speaking... Â You can strip and reseal one side at a time. Â Save some large expense for when it is required. Â I don't think you can bladder one side and not the other.... Â Best regards, Â -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sreid Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Quote: Hank  3. They hold an additional 12 gallons, and that makes for 100 lbs. total extra weight when full. THAT affects me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fantom Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Quote: Hank Being a charter member of the CB Club, I'm going for a strip and reseal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Quote: carusoam Economically speaking... You can strip and reseal one side at a time. Â Save some large expense for when it is required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottfromiowa Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Good point on the one side at a time...right tank MUCH worse than left. Hmmm. Yes, planning on painting interior. Maybe I should bite the bullet and get the side glass and do this winter at annual. Then one step closer to paint 'n time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 keep in mind: 1. The AD is for older instalations where they had to install foam under the bladders and install a heated anti-ice mast. This is done on all new installations. So its is not an AD that you will ever see. Non-event. 3. you have the option of 12 extra gallons, which you do not now have. bonus. 4. O&N says not to let them sit empty "for any length of time". We keep ours half full. A wash. Quote: Hank I just posed the "where to reseal" question over on the Mapa list, and the response was overwhelming to fly to Wilmar and let Paul Beck do it. He quoted a little under $6000 a couple of months ago for my 52-gal tanks, vs. what seems to be ~$10,000 to get 64-gallon bladders installed [since the Oshkosh show specials are now over]. The difference will buy a lot of avgas and accessories! Here are my thoughts about bladders: 1. There are ADs affecting them. 2. Typical costs are ~$10,000 installed, not including my own travel. 3. They hold an additional 12 gallons, and that makes for 100 lbs. total extra weight when full. THAT affects me. 4. Like wet wings, they last better when kept nearly full. See Point #3 above. Being a charter member of the CB Club, I'm going for a strip and reseal! Only to the tundra instead of to the beach . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Please explain...a heated ice mast? I know the bladders need to be seeded and shimmed by foam, what is an ice mast and are there any new operational or safety considerations in the supplement for bladders? Venting? Straining? Keeping full fuel? Caps? Fuel sensor changes? Any regular screen maintenance? Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 A heated ice mast goes in front of the fuel vent and it is heated when the pitot heat is on. It prevents the fuel tank vent from icing over. The only operational note is to not let the bladders sit empty for any length of time. The Shaw caps that come with the bladders are supposedly better than the OEM setup. Everything else is fill it and fly it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N601RX Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Quote: jetdriven A heated ice mast goes in front of the fuel vent and it is heated when the pitot heat is on. It prevents the fuel tank vent from icing over. The only operational note is to not let the bladders sit empty for any length of time. The Shaw caps that come with the bladders are supposedly better than the OEM setup. Everything else is fill it and fly it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Ours has the mast, and is specified in AD 2004-25-04.  http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgad.nsf/0/6ff2eeba54075bb686256f65005b79bc/$FILE/042504.pdf  also specfied by O&N.  http://www.onaircraft.com/Products/Mooney-Bladders.aspx   Further note, the bladder instalation manual says 29.7 lbs of extra weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Quote: Parker_Woodruff Bladders wear out, too. Get it resealed by someone who has a good process. Willmar, Don Maxwell, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Quote: jetdriven  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N601RX Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Quote: N601RX  Are you really sure about that heated mast? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Mike, seeing as how I got that manual from you, I should know better.  you got me. The ice mast is not heated. You would think I should know better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Quote: jetdriven The ice mast is not heated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Quote: N4352H This is what sparked my quesion. I knew of the mast, but would devolop a diffrent opinion of the bladder system if it involved heated venting. Any other operational differences or maintenance of the bladder system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N601RX Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Quote: rbridges  Cole is quoting $10K. I kinda clutched my chest b/c I was expecting around 8. My same thoughts about Wilmar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted October 11, 2011 Report Share Posted October 11, 2011 Since the "CB" club has been raised... $10,000 will buy about 1800 gallons of 100LL at current prices. How many gallons per year do you loose per year by leakage? Is your leak really a safety hazard? I'm just sayin' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 Quote: DaV8or How many gallons per year do you loose per year by leakage? Is your leak really a safety hazard? I'm just sayin' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted October 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 I'm going to Cole on Friday to have Joey take a look at my plane. I don't think I can do Willmar. Paul was very nice and quick with the emails, but the distance is pretty substantial, and the turnaround is 2 weeks. Therefore, I can't just "hang out" for a day or 2 to wait for the job to get done. The closest airline is in Minneapolis, and I'd have to drive to Atlanta, (x2). The 30 lbs for the bladders is a negative, but most of my flying is 1 or 2 people. I know nothing is permanent, but from what I've read, the bladders should be predictable and take care of the problem for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 Would you actually gain fuel capacity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 I spoke to Joey the other day. Bladders for my C weigh either 24 or 34 lbs and have 54.8 gal capacity, so I would gain 2.8 gallons, neglible for flight planning, but a combined 40-50 lbs. I typically run out of volume before weight, and have rarely carried four adults [me + 3]. Bladders apparently have excellent lifespan with few problems, a feature that commands a significant cost premium (~90% higher than strip & reseal quotes), but I have not tried hard bargaining yet, I'm still surveying the landscape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 Another good re-hash of the debate... I'm late to the party since I took a nice Mooney trip over the last few days but got cursed with 35-45 knot headwinds BOTH WAYS! I'll only add that some of us Mooney owners (and prospective buyers) are *very* conscious of useful load and some of our planes can truly be used 4-up with baggage. Â That was important to me when shopping, and I'm sure it is to others. Â Some of you say "I rarely fly with people in back" or similar, but when it comes time to sell, you might be removing your plane from the consideration of many buyers that would put 2 people in back. Â I'll freely admit this is likely only important on the F/J as the C/E will likely not have adults in the back seats very often, or for very long. Â I'm like Ward and typically fuel for my mission, and don't relish the thought of being obligated to fuel up when I land at home since I might be carrying a lot on the next trip, or I'm anxious to get to the house like last night/this morning when I closed the hangar at 1:15 AM. Â Perhaps we should all coax Paul to move to somewhere in the middle of the country... say Wichita? Â Â That way it would be much easier for everyone to get their tanks fixed properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted October 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 If Paul were closer, I'd definitely consider him. He's ~3K cheaper than the bladders, but I just couldn't find a feasible way to get my plane there and back, especially with the 2 week turnaround. Anyway, I ordered the bladders from O&N. They gave me a 300 Oshkosh show discount but hit me with 100 to ship. It saved me a few bucks since I didn't have to pay sales tax. Cole said he'd have to tax me, and even with his discount, it'd be higher for him to buy it. I am bummed about the 30 lbs, but honestly, the rear seats in a C model are too small for adults to consider for any length of time. At most, I'd have a 3rd person. As I said, I'd do the reseal at Willmar if it were easier to arrange, but the bladders will be fine for my mission profiles. In fact, it will give me a little more range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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