TIRADE OVER HOUSTON

[DaV8or]

If SWA has signed a contract with a labor union, then there are very defined rules as to how an employee is terminated. State law doesn't enter into it. In this case, the state of Texas wouldn't care about the fired employee, but lawyers would. It might be a breach of contract. If they do have a typical union contract covering their pilots, then no, this guy won't get fired for talking trash on the radio. He will get essentially a writen strike against him on his employment record, but it takes many strikes and proof that correctional action was at least attempted. It is very difficult to fire a union employee. What they can do, is put his name at the top of the list next time there is round of lay offs.

[jetdriven]

SWA pilots are covered by an in-house union and contract. The company also is generous with their handling of employees EG they not so quick to fire someone unless it was an egregious or safety related error.

pilot unions lay off based strictly on seniority.

that said, SWA hasn't had a furlough since its inception, except 3 pilots laid off a for month back in 1970.

[Becca]

@fatom, I would agree with you if what he said was in a bar.  But he said it in his workplace, and absusive statements over coworkers while at work is pretty much over the line in any workplace I know of.  There are a lot of people who would give an arm and a leg to fly at SWA and are perfectly qualified.  If they are going to continue to employee him, there should be more corrective action than a short suspension and day of diversity training.

@jetdriven, my understanding is the FA Union is pretty upset over this whole deal.  SWA has a good history of standing up for its employees but in this case the prime people being offended are also SWA employees.  If a customer said something like this to a SWA FA, they would stand by that person being kicked off the plane and probably banned from flying the airline.  But if a pilot says something about a FA like that (while recorded on the job), he isn't going to be punished barely a bit and the FA's are going to be forced on the road with him over and over again?

[Shadrach]

Parker,

Many states are "at will"...but a CBA trancends that with regards to termination. The termination guidelines are definitly codified, and as mentioned before, relate to safety or performance...

As far as the FCC violations mentioned...Without intent, it really has no teeth.

[Shadrach]

Becca,

There was no intent...This was like 2 guys having a private conversation in an empty confrence room and not knowing that speaker phone was dialed into a conference call with 200 people on it.  It was not intentional, it was not descriminatory and it was not illegal. It was unprofessional and offensive, but if all airline personel were "canned" for that there be a lot less FAs around as well...

[Becca]

Shadrach, there was no intent to be overheard, but there was clear intent to use foul language in a discussion about some of his coworkers to another coworker.  But to assume they were having a "private" conversation is absurd.  There are cockpit voice recorders.  They were at work.  Yes, its his bad luck to be caught compared to people who have had those conversations without being caught.  But if you want to end the culture of pilots (and FAs and whoever) having verbally abusive conversations on the job, when someone has the misfortune of being caught, there has to be consequences, otherwise its a de facto "its ok to talk like that at work, just don't let anyone hear you".  And its not ok to talk like that in the workplace.  How many FOs and FAs have listened to rants like this, and have been highly uncomfortable, and haven't said anything because theirs no evidence and you don't think the company would take action anyway if they reported it - that's the kind of culture you create when you don't do anything about incidents like this.  Maybe I could be wrong, maybe they enacted some serious and harsh internal punishment, and I would be ok with that in lieu of a firing, but all the articles make it seem like short suspension and a class which he probably didn't pay attention to given his attitude, so that doesn't make me have hope that they are working on changing the culture of the cockpit or setting an example.

[fantom]

[fantom]

OK.....OK....in case you can't figure it out

[FlyDave]

This guys is a freaking CREEP and thats all there is to say about him. At least he had the sense to air his views in what he believed to be a private conversation. Too bad he was stupid enough to broadcast his views on a recorded medium for anyone with internet access to hear.

In the end, no amount of classes or counselling will change the way this guy is. There always has and always will be people like this. These extremes in life provide somewhat of a reference for the middle, or what we consider "normal" or "decent".

Let it go and enjoy life - he isn't worth the energy people are expending on him.

[Shadrach]

You cannot legislate morality, nor do I want anyone deciding what I or anyone else can and cannot say in private whether that's at work home or anywhere else...  cockpit voice recorders have nothing to do with privacy, they are not in the public domain and one can reasonably expect that another human being will only hear the content of what's spoken in the cockpit only under extreme conditions... While I find this guys comments obnoxious and unprofessional, I fail to see who he was verbally abusing.  I am far more frightened of idea of speech police than this twit.  This guy is a pig and on top of it he was having a "bad month"...yet what he said was far tamer than lyrics in much of what is played on the radio today (there's no accounting for taste)...Time to move on, life is full of jerks..are we so sensitive that we call for the termination of a perfectly competent pilot because of a "should have been" private conversation offends us?

 

[jetdriven]

Shadrach,   +10

[231Pilot]

Interesting that the controller used the phrase "descend at pilot's discretion".....sounded to me like at least one pilot used very little discretion....just saying.

[AlexR]

Shadrach has got it perfectly.  We have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...nothing in there about the right to never be offended by others.  The guy is a jerk but we can't allow the use of little incidents like this to gradually steal away are freedom of speech.  As a nation we have gone from "I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it" to "fire him because he offended my fragile sensibilities in a conversation I was not party to." Get over it.  Living well is the best revenge.

[rob]

Actually,we don't have the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." That's from the Declaration of Independence. We are protected from being deprived of the three without due process of law by the fifth amendment, though...

[Parker_Woodruff]

Here's a new one...Mooneyspace going backwards!

[fantom]

That jerk was neither a USAF pilot or a Mooney pilot.......

[John Pleisse]

Many states are "at will"...but a CBA transcends that with regards to termination. The termination guidelines are definitely codified, and as mentioned before, relate to safety or performance...

And "Conduct".....

As far as the FCC violations mentioned...Without intent, it really has no teeth.

Well of course it doesn't have teeth, but "cause" could be derived whether it is splitting hairs or not. Anyway, it doesn't matter. Apparently he kept his job. If he were my employee, he'd be gone on poor judgment and character alone.

And never mind all this life and liberty crap....wasn't the guy supposed to be flying a plane full of passengers? Oh, that's right, it is the inalienable right of airline pilots to man-up when the autopilot is on....puh-leeze.

 

[John Pleisse]

Oh and another thing. He jammed that frequency for nearly a minute, putting everyone around him at risk. If there were damages, he'd be negligent.

[Becca]

Love all the "right to life, liberty, etc" stuff y'all have going on.  I am curious as to where you guys work?  Last I heard, when I was on the clock, my "right to free speech" to be derogative about coworkers doesn't exist.  Oh, I can't be arrested for saying stuff like that, but I can certainly be fired or disciplined.  And I would hope if any of my coworkers said anything like that about me and was over heard they would be fired or severely disciplined.  And though I work in one of the most secure and protected jobs that exist and one I'm unlikely to ever lose, I can tell you something like that is the surest way to get in trouble (besides stealing moonrocks).  Frankly, I'd defend that guys right to go on a rant like that to a newspaper reporter in public ON HIS OWN TIME.  However, he wasn't on his own time, he was on company time and had the misfortune of being over heard, and there you go. 

[Becca]

You know many work places have rules about inter-office relationships, you can get fired for that.  Not arrested.  But fired.  Just because you have the right to say what you want doesn't mean you SHOULD say whatever comes to mind.  Rights have to do with what the police can do to you.  Your judgement in exercising those rights has consequences, and your continued employment can be one of those consequences.

[AlexR]

Don't get me wrong.  I personally believe an employer should have the right to terminate an employee without cause.  If the airline wants to fire him for poor judgement, fine...have at it.  My beef is with 'advocacy groups' calling for him to be be fired for what he said and what he thinks.  The guy is a sexist jerk, but he should not be fired for offending a minority group in what he thought was a private conversation, vice having a verbal discussion with a member of said group, or officially commenting on the matter while on the employers clock...taking someones means/employment over an accidental airing of his thoughts, no matter how backward and offensive, treads on free speech.  Now, that is not to say that his co-workers should not shun him so he leaves on his own...he has to live with what he said. 

@ Rob - Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness *(as stated in the DOI and enshired in the BORs).

[John Pleisse]

AlexR- My beef is with 'advocacy groups' calling for him to be be fired for what he said and what he thinks. My beef is with 'advocacy groups' calling for him to be be fired for what he said and what he thinks. 

I agree...my bad.....................................TIRADE OVER "MOONEYSPACE"

 

[Becca]

The only "advocacy group" that has publicly commented on this that I know of is the SWA FA Union, and I think they have a dog in this fight...

[Shadrach]

I guess there are some that do want legislate morality...On what grounds would he be fired? Did he do anything illegal? How would the company go about circumventing it's contract. What is the benefit?

 

N4352H-The stuck mike is a completely separate issue from the tirade.  It would set a really interesting precedent... Convicting a pilot for a mechanical issue... Have you thought this through?  I hope that your equipment is maintained to a higher standard then SWA's... I'd bet that in the absence of the tirade, you'd probably not even be mentioning it.

 

 

I cannot believe that on a board full of pilots that fly XC aircraft...we've the "he should have been busy flying the plane" comments...  Really?  You'd be a great asset to an organization like USA Today...  What were you "busy" doing in cruise during during the 1st hour of the last 3 or 4hr XC trip you made? I'm typically shuffling through 60GB of nothing to listen to...  The reality is that this guy is likely good at his job, and the company has invested tangible resources in him in terms of his type rating and recurring training...and offensive conversations that were intended to be private are not grounds for dismissal... Scorn? Well sure, Knock yourself out.

 

 

Since he is so "unteachable" as many have said and will likely never evolve into anything better (such a cynical and typically false POV), what do the "deciders" think is an acceptable place for him in society? Bus driver, trash man?  Perhaps he should just be euthanized?

 

 

I'd bet a large sum that 90% of the folks on this board that have at some point in their lives said something ignorant and offensive.  Not having the benefit of a skeleton key for everyone's closets; I suppose we'll just have to settle for the self righteous outrage.

 

 

Get over it, seriously.

 

 

Tirade indeed...

 

[Shadrach]

president = precedent...I'm going to eventually get through one post sans typo...