Considering purchasing a Mooney - transitioning from a C182

[Hank]

This is how I get out . . . No pictures getting in.

She carries four adults well, but this trip was limited to 34 gallons' fuel, or 3:45 total flight time. We went less than two hours, counting a fuel stop each way. I was about 190, two pax were 200+, and the skinny was about 160 or so.

But coming from a 182, you will appreciate the higher speed and lower fuel burn! I have a slow C model, only 145-148 KTAS and 9 gph at altitude. My full fuel payload is 670 lb., which will last at least 5:30 [much longer than I want to fly without a stop!). For a true comparison against your Cessna, figure the time and fuel needed for some of your common trips, then see how much payload is left in each plane. I think you will be pleasantly surprised . . . .

 

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

 

I open the cowl flaps on downwind to prepare for the go-around.  You're always ready for the go-around, right?  Every landing is a go-around until proven otherwise, right?

To each their own, but especially in the winter I try to keep as much warm air inside the cowling as possible particularly if I do have to do a go around. Cylinder temperatures at idle with the cowl flaps open would probably be down around 150°. Going from that to 350° would be hard on cylinders.

The least important thing to do on a go around is open the cowl flaps.  Even in summer the CHTs won't climb that high, that fast that they couldn't wait for the after takeoff checklist to open them.

But again, to each their own, as long as they're safe.

[steingar]

21 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

To each their own, but especially in the winter I try to keep as much warm air inside the cowling as possible particularly if I do have to do a go around. Cylinder temperatures at idle with the cowl flaps open would probably be down around 150°. Going from that to 350° would be hard on cylinders.

The least important thing to do on a go around is open the cowl flaps.  Even in summer the CHTs won't climb that high, that fast that they couldn't wait for the after takeoff checklist to open them.

But again, to each their own, as long as they're safe.

You won't be looking at any checklists if you have to do a go around in a Johnson bar Mooney.  Take offs are busy, but go arounds are particularly frantic.  Engines operate at hundreds of degrees, I doubt they much notice the 70 degree spread they get from us.

[David Klasing]

Thanks for all the input.  I have ruled out a Mooney based on the fact that my wife and I cannot sit side by side in one...   We are both LARGE people...   

Thanks for all the input... 

 

I was considering buying a Rocket 252 and the use full load was only 840 pounds...  Together she and I weigh 500 - time to go on a diet! 

 

Here she is...  I was in LOVE...  bummer 

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/30203713/1987-mooney-m20k-252tse

 

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

You won't be looking at any checklists if you have to do a go around in a Johnson bar Mooney.  Take offs are busy, but go arounds are particularly frantic.  Engines operate at hundreds of degrees, I doubt they much notice the 70 degree spread they get from us.

I agree with both of you. Cowl flaps are the least important item on a go around. And I won't be looking at any check list when it's time to go around. Go arounds are often unexpected and immediately required to save the airplane, persons, or property. Having said that, by the time I'm at pattern altitude, the urgency is passed and I can settle down, reassess the situation and use a check list if needed. Any Mooney should be able to do a go around to pattern altitude with the cowl flaps closed and without overheating or otherwise harming the engine in anyway.

Therefore I always have my cowl flaps closed in the descent, closed for landing, and closed when on the ground, and finally closed while parked. 

[Niko182]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

I agree with both of you. Cowl flaps are the least important item on a go around. And I won't be looking at any check list when it's time to go around. Go arounds are often unexpected and immediately required to save the airplane, persons, or property. Having said that, by the time I'm at pattern altitude, the urgency is passed and I can settle down, reassess the situation and use a check list if needed. Any Mooney should be able to do a go around to pattern altitude with the cowl flaps closed and without overheating or otherwise harming the engine in anyway.

Therefore I always have my cowl flaps closed in the descent, closed for landing, and closed when on the ground, and finally closed while parked. 

What are these cowl flaps you speak of?
 

[gsxrpilot]

25 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

What are these cowl flaps you speak of?
 

Hahahahah... well for me it's a singular "cowl flap". 

[Andy95W]

9 hours ago, steingar said:

You won't be looking at any checklists if you have to do a go around in a Johnson bar Mooney.  Take offs are busy, but go arounds are particularly frantic.  Engines operate at hundreds of degrees, I doubt they much notice the 70 degree spread they get from us.

I have a Johnson bar Mooney, Michael.  The "after take off checklist" I'm referring to would be completed as you're climbing through 1,000-1,500 feet or so leaving the traffic pattern or joining downwind.

Having more than a year and a half of my life off the ground, I can't think of anything that is particularly "frantic".  I have found that with that many hours, I make mistakes with much more confidence than I used to. 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Hahahahah... well for me it's a singular "cowl flap". 

It might only be one, but it’s awfully impressive!

Clarence

[steingar]

8 hours ago, Andy95W said:

I have a Johnson bar Mooney, Michael.  The "after take off checklist" I'm referring to would be completed as you're climbing through 1,000-1,500 feet or so leaving the traffic pattern or joining downwind.

Having more than a year and a half of my life off the ground, I can't think of anything that is particularly "frantic".  I have found that with that many hours, I make mistakes with much more confidence than I used to. 

Andy, lets try this.  On takeoff, I have to quickly suck up the gear, suck up the flaps, and reduce power to 25 squared, all while keeping the wings level and maintaining course.  I know, the 25 squared is optional, but its what I do.  That's busy, but not that bad.

Now, think about the go-around.  I'm in landing configuration, which includes lots of nose up trim to counter the full flaps.  I firewall the throttle, which is what one does for a go around.  Immediately I have the mother off all pitch up motions, which I have to counter with trim and flaps.  And I still have to suck up the gear.  And all this has to be done very quickly, since if I get going too fast I'm going to have quite a problem retracting the gear.

Once I took off with trim and flaps in the landing configuration.  Yeah, I blew my checklist, we're all human.  By the time I had the gear stowed I was 3 mph north of a departure stall.  Certainly got my attention.

Obviously I go around if I see anything amiss.  But if I do, boy am I ready for a ride.

Edited January 23, 2019 by steingar

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

Andy, lets try this.  On takeoff, I have to quickly suck up the gear, suck up the flaps, and reduce power to 25 squared, all while keeping the wings level and maintaining course.  I know, the 25 squared is optional, but its what I do.  That's busy, but not that bad.

Now, think about the go-around.  I'm in landing configuration, which includes lots of nose up trim to counter the full flaps.  I firewall the throttle, which is what one does for a go around.  Immediately I have the mother off all pitch up motions, which I have to counter with trim and flaps.  And I still have to suck up the gear.  And all this has to be done very quickly, since if I get going too fast I'm going to have quite a problem retracting the gear.

Once I took off with trim and flaps in the landing configuration.  Yeah, I blew my checklist, we're all human.  By the time I had the gear stowed I was 3 mph north of a departure stall.  Certainly got my attention.

Obviously I go around if I see anything amiss.  But if I do, boy am I ready for a ride.

You can certainly simplify your life by getting rid of that 25 square nonsense. 

[ShuRugal]

.
Once I took off with trim and flaps in the landing configuration.

Hah, I've done that. Hovered right off the runway at about 55 MIAS. Smooth as glass, too.

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[steingar]

1 hour ago, ShuRugal said:

Hah, I've done that. Hovered right off the runway at about 55 MIAS. Smooth as glass, too.

I hadn't a clue until I looked up and saw the airspeed indicator.  Thankfully the thing went up like an express elevator, so even had I gotten into the departure stall had I keep the ball centered I'd  have had  room to recover.

You can certainly simplify your life by getting rid of that 25 square nonsense. 

I have two reasons to keep it.  The first is its what's in my POH.  I know, wisdom from 50 years ago, but what else have I?  More importantly, I've read anecdotally on this site that the airplanes burn less gas when so doing.  Hence I have kept it as a practice.  

Like I said, busy on takeoff, but easily doable.  A wild ride in a go-around.

[Andy95W]

3 hours ago, steingar said:

Now, think about the go-around.  I'm in landing configuration, which includes lots of nose up trim to counter the full flaps.  I firewall the throttle, which is what one does for a go around.  Immediately I have the mother off all pitch up motions, which I have to counter with trim and flaps.  And I still have to suck up the gear.  And all this has to be done very quickly, since if I get going too fast I'm going to have quite a problem retracting the gear.

 

I'm not going to argue with you about how to do a go around- please remember that I fly the exact same airplane type as you.

The point I'm trying to get across is that "quickly" is one thing, but it should never be frantic.  (Unless you're doing a go around in a box canyon in the Idaho back country.  Pretty sure that doesn't apply to either of us.)

You should never get the "mother of all pitch up motions" from adding full power smoothly.  A steady, smooth application of power that takes about 2-3 seconds is easily counteracted by elevator pressure to maintain about 75-80 mph.  Roll in a few (about 2 or 3) spins on the trim and you're ready to retract the gear.  Retract the flaps and the airspeed will come up nicely as the nose pitches down upon flap retraction.  Now you have plenty of time to go to 25/25 if you desire, turn off the fuel pump, and open the cowl flaps.

And this is the one time I will invoke my decades and thousands of hours- if it feels frantic, then it needs to be practiced more.  Doing 4 or 5 practice go arounds at 3,000 AGL will do wonders.  And "firewalling the throttle" should be smooth, steady, and gradual- not split-second and frantic.

[Andy95W]

4 minutes ago, steingar said:

Like I said, busy on takeoff, but easily doable.  A wild ride in a go-around.

Again, if it's a "wild ride", you're either not doing it right or not practicing enough.

[Marauder]

You can certainly simplify your life by getting rid of that 25 square nonsense. 

And not doing the nose up on the trim!


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[steingar]

14 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

 A steady, smooth application of power that takes about 2-3 seconds is easily counteracted by elevator pressure to maintain about 75-80 mph.  R

Easily if you're King Kong or the Hulk.  With little ol' me it takes some muscle.  Holding that while turning the trim wheel while maintaining wings level and runway heading (what we do in a go around especially if there are other airplanes in the pattern.  Always be predictable) is a bit of a job.  And because of my diminutive stature shining the bar takes a bit of oomph no matter what, so I can't take too long before retracting the landing gear..  So it gets to be a bit of a deal.  Not a deal breaker,  I do it all he time.  Just a deal.

Edited January 23, 2019 by steingar

[steingar]

4 minutes ago, Marauder said:

5 minutes ago, Marauder said:

And not doing the nose up on the trim!

 

 

Can't keep the nose up without it unless I forego the flaps.

[Marauder]

Andy, lets try this.  On takeoff, I have to quickly suck up the gear, suck up the flaps, and reduce power to 25 squared, all while keeping the wings level and maintaining course.  I know, the 25 squared is optional, but its what I do.  That's busy, but not that bad.
Now, think about the go-around.  I'm in landing configuration, which includes lots of nose up trim to counter the full flaps.  I firewall the throttle, which is what one does for a go around.  Immediately I have the mother off all pitch up motions, which I have to counter with trim and flaps.  And I still have to suck up the gear.  And all this has to be done very quickly, since if I get going too fast I'm going to have quite a problem retracting the gear.
Once I took off with trim and flaps in the landing configuration.  Yeah, I blew my checklist, we're all human.  By the time I had the gear stowed I was 3 mph north of a departure stall.  Certainly got my attention.
Obviously I go around if I see anything amiss.  But if I do, boy am I ready for a ride.

In my 28 years of ownership I have done my fair share of go arounds. None more scary that seeing a deer at night pop onto the runway just as I was in the flare.

I don’t firewall the throttle on a go around. I add power steadily while pushing harder with my left arm for the expected increase in yoke pressure. Before I added electric trim, I would then reach down and do a couple of rotations of the trim wheel to remove a fair amount of back force pressure on the yoke. Where I may differ than Andy, is I would bring flaps up to the takeoff position (on my F it is a detent position) and then once in a steady climb, bring the gear up, the remaining flaps, open the cowl flaps and turn off the boost pump.

It is something I will practice once in a while because you never know when you will need to do it.


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[Skates97]

10 minutes ago, steingar said:

I hadn't a clue until I looked up and saw the airspeed indicator.  Thankfully the thing went up like an express elevator, so even had I gotten into the departure stall had I keep the ball centered I'd  have had  room to recover.

I have two reasons to keep it.  The first is its what's in my POH.  I know, wisdom from 50 years ago, but what else have I?  More importantly, I've read anecdotally on this site that the airplanes burn less gas when so doing.  Hence I have kept it as a practice.  

Like I said, busy on takeoff, but easily doable.  A wild ride in a go-around.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I don't find a takeoff busy or a go-around wild. I have the same plane as well (love everything manual). On takeoff I find myself feeling like I am waiting to do things. I don't really think much about keeping the wings level and runway heading, that is just part of flying. Just like I don't really think about staying in my lane going down the road, it's just part of driving.

Take off

• Pre-takeoff checklist complete, nothing to do but take the runway, push the throttle in, and stay centered (right rudder) while speed builds and glancing at engine monitor.
• Gently pull back and I'm airborne
• Raise gear (takes about a second)
• Wait some more until I get to 400' AGL, flip lever up to retract flaps and turn off electric fuel pump.
• Wait some more until I get to 800' AGL to make my turn (unless I'm given an early turnout, noise abatement procedures, etc...)
• Continue climbing to whatever my cruise altitude is at which point I adjust the prop and lean it out

Go-around

• Push the throttle forward, some forward pressure on the yoke, right rudder, and start turning the trim wheel (Love the manual trim, it can be adjusted very quickly)
• Positive rate of climb retract gear and then flaps
• Wait until I get to 800' AGL and make my turn in the pattern

5 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Again, if it's a "wild ride", you're either not doing it right or not practicing enough.

Agree, one of the things I did on my first few flights for my PPL and later in transition training was practice go-arounds at altitude. CFI would tell me what altitude the ground was for the exercise and I would fly a normal pattern with the assumed altitude as my ground level. At some point on final (I'm keeping a watch on the altimeter) he would say "go around." Sometimes it was 50' above the set altitude, sometimes 5-10', always mixed up. Goal was to not bust the "ground level."

[steingar]

4 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Just how small are you, Michael?  You talk about your size a lot but perhaps some more particulars are in order.  I can see how at some point being small of stature could definitely make controlling the airplane more difficult at times.  

That having been said, ditch the 25 squared nonsense and just keep the cowl flaps closed.  It’ll make things easier for you and allow you to concentrate on what must be done (i.e. maintaining control of the aircraft) rather than on what can be done during a critical stage of flight.    

Jim

Jim, I'm 5 foot 7 inches in shoes with heels on a good day.  I'm in good shape (round is a good shape).  I love the Mooney because it is the only airplane in which I have ever sat in which I could see over the nose without sitting on a pillow.  I hate sitting on a pillow, makes me feel like a little kid, and I had an unpleasant childhood.  Most pipsqueaks do.

My 25 squared on takeoff doesn't come in until after the gear and flaps are stowed, so it really isn't that big a deal.  I usually don't worry about it at all in a go around since by the time I go to adjust the throttle and prop I'll be at pattern altitude anyway, and need much bigger adjustments to keep from climbing too high.  If I'm on my game the cowl flaps will already be open when I hit the go juice for the go around.  I know I describe it as wild, but it really can't be that bad since the last go around was during the first night flight I'd done in a couple years.  Landing sucked so hard I bagged it and went home.  Landing back at my home wasn't that much better.  Still, I did it from the flare (actually, from bounce number two or three, but who's counting?) without being able to see much of anything (gad the lighting sucks in my aircraft!).  If I can do that a go around on a sunny day shouldn't be that big a deal.  

Practice with go arounds I don' t think I need.  Practice with night flight I need desperately, boy do I suck.  Might even go Friday night, might be our last VFR wx for awhile.

[Andy95W]

25 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Where I may differ than Andy, is I would bring flaps up to the takeoff position (on my F it is a detent position) and then once in a steady climb, bring the gear up, the remaining flaps, open the cowl flaps and turn off the boost pump.
 

 

I totally agree, and that's probably one of the biggest differences in the Johnson bar/ hydraulic flaps and electric models.  It's almost impossible to partially retract the hydraulic flaps, and if the speed gets too fast it's really hard to retract the gear.

Every other airplane I fly/have flown, it's always flaps/gear/flaps on the go around.

[Andy95W]

44 minutes ago, steingar said:

Easily if you're King Kong or the Hulk.  With little ol' me it takes some muscle.

I get it.  And the step up to something with electric gear, flaps and trim like a new Ovation is kinda spendy! 

[steingar]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I like your sense of humor, Michael.  FWIW, I don’t fly at night often enough to feel proficient at it either.  I do regularly practice go arounds, but in my 1200 hours I can’t remember ever having to do one for real, which worries me a little bit since I’m sure it is in my head to expect a landing at the end of every approach.  We all have our demons, I suppose.  

Jim

Jim, I've done them plenty times for real.  Doing one is how I found out my airplane climbs like a dog with the gear out.  I've yet to have to do one because of some condition on the field, there is that.  But I've done plenty of approaches where I said "lets bag this and try again".  My biggest demon is I'll try and stuff it in after a bad approach, and I am truly trying to wean myself of the temptation.  Thankfully I mostly land on big long runways, but I am always aware that I might have to pull it in short.

To be honest, the only time I can recall doing it from the flare or at least from the ground was that night flight.  The landing really and truly sucked, but the go around worked out just fine.  I do want to get more proficient, though I suspect that said proficiency is going to require a lot more cockpit lighting than I have right now.  Lots of good intel on this site about that particular issue.

[steingar]

1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

I get it.  And the step up to something with electric gear, flaps and trim like a new Ovation is kinda spendy! 

Problem is I LOVE my Johnson bar.  It does make things a little more difficult, but it is the most reliable gear system I've ever seen.  I don't need a great big airplane with a honking big engine,  most days its just me and Mrs. Steingar, and she makes me look like Conan the Barbarian (if we're talking Comic Book characters its more like the Blob, but you get the idea).  Don't need a giant back seat.  Yeah, it'd be nice to go faster, but I don't need  the big back seat and can't afford the bills.  As it is I can barely afford what I got.  So the Ranger is going to be my forever airplane.  The Lucky Strike will bump around on local flights but is a capable traveler at need.

Like I said, go arounds can be a bit wild for little old me.  But getting rid of my wonderful airplane for that is like divorcing my wonderful wife because she snores on Tuesdays.

Edited January 23, 2019 by steingar