Trio Pro Pilot For M20 Mooneys

[NJMac]

It would be great after the ADSB mandate if shops get a little slower and more hungry on pricing with these AP installs.

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[Sandman993]

The g5’s are $9800 plus tax installed at the place in San Marcos Texas 

if you don’t install 2) G5’s, the garmin autopilot can’t do everything they advertise. Garmin autopilot takes two G5’s to work at full potential. And again, if you want trim... you’ll have to buy another $1700 servo and have it installed for xxx dollars on top of that. It could get into the mid to high 20’s.

i always find the cheap installer places are booked up til forever, but they can and may change order you to death. 

[Sandman993]

1 hour ago, NJMac said:

It would be great after the ADSB mandate if shops get a little slower and more hungry on pricing with these AP installs.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

I did the adsb thing a little over a year ago before the rush got into full retard mode... it’s going to be insanity for a while... I’m glad my ship is done... except I would like to have a digital autopilot... hopefully a pro pilot!

 

 

[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, Sandman993 said:

The g5’s are $9800 plus tax installed at the place in San Marcos Texas 

if you don’t install 2) G5’s, the garmin autopilot can’t do everything they advertise. Garmin autopilot takes two G5’s to work at full potential. And again, if you want trim... you’ll have to buy another $1700 servo and have it installed for xxx dollars on top of that. It could get into the mid to high 20’s.

i always find the cheap installer places are booked up til forever, but they can and may change order you to death. 

That’s sounds high.  I had a quote for 4500$ installed for the G5 HsI. The AI is less.

but many people with the lower grade autopilots put in G5’s later anyway. Or aspens. 

But yes apples to apples there isn’t a comparison, the Garmin stuff costs more and does more. For a 172 trainer perhaps the trip or trutrac options are optimal. For a traveling airplane don’t cheap out. 

[Sabremech]

On 1/8/2019 at 12:57 PM, smccray said:

I agree completely with @Bob - S50

Different airplanes.  A Mooney is a traveling airplane and it deserves a capable autopilot.  A GFC500 and the Dynon (autopilot) represents an autopilot that's part of an integrated system that is highly capable.  The Trio and Trutrack autopilots are stand alone systems that make sense in smaller aircraft.  I'm not saying the autopilots are less capable, I'm saying they don't integrate into an avionics platform.  I have no doubt it's a fine system, but it's a lightweight autopilot.  

The problem for Trio and Trutrack is their competitive position.  Toy airplanes (think J3 cub) don't need an autopilot.  High end single engine pistons (think SR22) have fully integrated systems.  Retrofit avionics are trending towards more integrated systems.  High end airplanes deserve high end systems.  Nothing wrong with the low end autopilots, but it doesn't make much sense for a traveling airplane to have a low end autopilot.  A VFR airplane could use an autopilot, but that's also an plane that doesn't really need an autopilot.

The Trutrak and Trio are perfect for older Mooney’s that don’t have a high end panel but are still very capable airplanes. That would include many of the vintage Mooney’s through G models. Still a good number of those flying and worthy of the lower end autopilot. I’m not going to stick a $10K autopilot in a $35K Mooney. That will not make my Mooney worth another $10K. 

David

[Sandman993]

I don’t think it’s a cheap out... those autopilots will do just fine. 

[jetdriven]

9 minutes ago, Sabremech said:

The Trutrak and Trio are perfect for older Mooney’s that don’t have a high end panel but are still very capable airplanes. That would include many of the vintage Mooney’s through G models. Still a good number of those flying and worthy of the lower end autopilot. I’m not going to stick a $10K autopilot in a $35K Mooney. That will not make my Mooney worth another $10K. 

David

I agree. You have to make the valuation case, and the capability case as well.  

[jetdriven]

5 minutes ago, Sandman993 said:

I don’t think it’s a cheap out... those autopilots will do just fine. 

As long as you don’t want to do approaches or track an ILS, if that’s your definition of fine.  It’s a downgrade in capability from a 1977 Century III.  

[Sabremech]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

I agree. You have to make the valuation case, and the capability case as well.  

All I require is altitude hold and heading. That will reduce my work load enough on longer cross country flights and I’ll hand fly the approaches. I don’t do enough IFR flight to justify the added expense for more features. 

David

[Sabremech]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

As long as you don’t want to do approaches or track an ILS, if that’s your definition of fine.  It’s a downgrade in capability from a 1977 Century III.  

It’s a major upgrade from the Britain wing leveler. 

[Navi]

After looking at adding "altitude hold" to our Century I for $14000 (Cdn) , Installing an (almost) full featured autopilot for half of that cost had some appeal....

:)

Nav

[drapo]

2 hours ago, jetdriven said:

As long as you don’t want to do approaches or track an ILS, if that’s your definition of fine.  It’s a downgrade in capability from a 1977 Century III.  

TT will do approaches, it has an included GPSS. It won't track an ILS  but it will shoot a LPV or RNAV approach included in the compatible GPS database, and you'll be legal down to 700AGL This is higher than an ILS or LPV but right now, I hand fly from the start with my Brittain, so I won't mind starting to hand fly it the last few miles. 

Not to be forgotten, TT will also fly the missed approach and enter and fly a holding pattern. Finally, it will fly a compatible GPS flight plan, including the feature us Brittain Mooney are all looking for, the altitude hold, and this one is coupled to a vertical speed manager.

Not perfect, but close enough for a lot of us!

[Navi]

On  another forum, a guy tested his TT a few weeks ago on his Archer.. The TT flew the whole approach, with hold, with landing reconfig, to 7-8 ft. in mild gusts, where he discoed the AP, pulled off the power and flared over the centerline ... 

Its very capable, and TT hope to get it tested for the cert to do it legally. Other priorities at this time though, like getting the STC for the Mooneys…  

With the Aspen E5 in the mix, if your ILS will talk to the Aspen, it will pass through the directions to the TT and it will track the ILS. Whatever you select on the Aspen, if it can display it, it will insert the data in the ARINC 429 data stream. The TT will follow these directions, not knowing or caring where they originate...

What the TT does lack is IAS select for climbs and descents, a helpful feature in rough conditions at or near the higher alts where  the aircraft may be running out of puff. You can "workaround"  the lack of this feature (BTW the Garmin CAN do this, it has IAS select)  by setting the "MinSpeed" in the TT to your  Vy, and tweak the VS setting as you climb to "rarer air".

>Not perfect, but close enough for a lot of us!

Yup!   Very close for many, including me!  95% of what the Garmin can do for half the cost.

Nav

Edited January 10, 2019 by Navi

[Steve W]

Actually, according to the currently approved AFMS for the TruTrak:

"This autopilot has not been evaluated to meet certification requirements for coupled instrument procedures, including coupled approaches. Therefore coupled instrument approaches and procedures are not authorized without further approval."

So, no, it's not legal down to 700, it's not legal at all right now.

Sure, it might be someday, it might also someday have electric pitch trim but considering how rarely any avionics manufacturer meets any of their targets I'd never buy anything assuming it may someday do what I want if it's a feature I really want.

 

[Sandman993]

15 hours ago, jetdriven said:

That’s sounds high.  I had a quote for 4500$ installed for the G5 HsI. The AI is less.

but many people with the lower grade autopilots put in G5’s later anyway. Or aspens. 

But yes apples to apples there isn’t a comparison, the Garmin stuff costs more and does more. For a 172 trainer perhaps the trip or trutrac options are optimal. For a traveling airplane don’t cheap out. 

Yeah, I thought it was a little high too, but just to be straight, the 9800 is g5's and installation labor, but does not include sales tax. The G5's in the box are roughly 5,000 give or take so the install would be 40+ or minus hrs.

As I understand it, the pro pilot will fly a gps approach both vertical and lateral...and simply not certified below 500'? Can't remember the last time I flew an ILS unless it was practice...and not sure the pro doesn't have that slot too. I'm looking into whether the all in one autopilots have a slot for trim servo...

Dunno if it's lip service or not, but the avionics shop said he expected the Garmin 500 series autopilot to be certified for our planes within 30 days.

[Navi]

>>Sure, it might be someday, it might also someday have electric pitch trim but considering how rarely any avionics manufacturer meets any of their targets I'd never buy anything assuming it may someday do what I want if it's a feature I really want.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A valid statement...  :)

But some have better performance records than others.. Some lead, ( Avidine, TruTrak, Aspen, Alpha) some follow,  (S-Tec, Century) and some have to be pushed.. (Garmin)

And there are others...

>I'm looking into whether the all in one autopilots have a slot for trim servo...

The TT "auto Trim " system  is already in the unit, it signals the pitch indicator now, and can signal your existing electric trim, but is not approved to do do. (yet) I think, but not sure,  that the Trio does as well. Garmin has it approved in the STC, but in some aircraft, MAJOR work is involved to install the trim servo.

>Dunno if it's lip service or not, but the avionics shop said he expected the Garmin 500 series autopilot to be certified for our planes within 30 days.

The guvmint approval process is closed at this time . I would start counting again after they are back to work and add 60 days to clear the backlog...

Coupled approaches may be approved for the TT and Trio eventually, the STC approval process for this is long and expensive, so watch for it to be driven by a large demand from the sold customer base..   TT is building a large customer base, so it may happen. Trio, not so much. Garmin is driven by a different market and the demand for coupled approaches is from their target market.

YMMV!

 

 

 

[drapo]

14 hours ago, Steve W said:

Actually, according to the currently approved AFMS for the TruTrak:

"This autopilot has not been evaluated to meet certification requirements for coupled instrument procedures, including coupled approaches. Therefore coupled instrument approaches and procedures are not authorized without further approval."

So, no, it's not legal down to 700, it's not legal at all right now.

Sure, it might be someday, it might also someday have electric pitch trim but considering how rarely any avionics manufacturer meets any of their targets I'd never buy anything assuming it may someday do what I want if it's a feature I really want.

 

The statement is true! But... Garmin GFC500 needs additional equipment to be approved to fly coupled approaches. S-tec(Genesis) will provide this feature starting at the 55X level or better ($$$$). Nothing is preventing you to track an approach with the new digital autopilots, be it TT, Trio or Garmin or one of the lower end S-tec.

[Navi]

I was told that flying coupled approaches is a significant certification challenge, and has to be done with each pairing  of approved GPS navigators..

Any truth to this?

What does the Garmin need additionally to be certed for this?

Nav

 

 

[Steve W]

28 minutes ago, drapo said:

The statement is true! But... Garmin GFC500 needs additional equipment to be approved to fly coupled approaches. S-tec(Genesis) will provide this feature starting at the 55X level or better ($$$$). Nothing is preventing you to track an approach with the new digital autopilots, be it TT, Trio or Garmin or one of the lower end S-tec.

Not sure what additional equipment you mean... It does require a GPS signal for any ground based tracking, but it basically requires a GPS for everything it does, similarly it requires 2 G5s as well for pretty much every install. Now, if you're comparing it to the TT, yes, the GFC500 does require more than just an 'autopilot'.

 

[drapo]

5 hours ago, Steve W said:

Not sure what additional equipment you mean... It does require a GPS signal for any ground based tracking, but it basically requires a GPS for everything it does, similarly it requires 2 G5s as well for pretty much every install. Now, if you're comparing it to the TT, yes, the GFC500 does require more than just an 'autopilot'.

 

My point 

[Sandman993]

Spoke to Paul Odum this afternoon with the stc group... he was very helpful in explaining the process and installation of the pro pilot. Paul was here briefly with a couple posts to explore the possibility of producing an autopilot for our ships. He mentioned that much of the design was already done. I think he was somewhat disappointed after one or two of us weighed in. I told him don’t let a few outweigh the many. I for one, really like what they have in the way of a cost effective digital autopilot... and hope they know there are a lot of Mooney touring aircraft here and around the country, seen and unseen, that can benefit from all their hard work. Also I would like them to know that I for one, really appreciate the stc group helping  General Aviation... it’s a huge contribution.

let em know they are appreciated 

[Navi]

Sandman... you REALLY need to read this thread... It's long...

But it tells how one manufacturer literally bombed out of the Cherokee market. Cessna guys have a similar story. Some of them are REALLY upset after purchasing and installing.

There is more, but doubtful it should be in a public forum...  :(

https://www.piperforum.com/threads/pa-28-autopilot-stc.10132/

[Sandman993]

I can't access the link without registering with piper forum...just not that interested in p planes for the most part and besides...it's like riding a moped, they might be fun, but you don't want anyone to see you doing it!

I do however remember in the conversation, something about Piper being a real gem to install stuff in the tail...anyway, if you want to be dominated by one powerful avionics company (I don't) and left with, but one choice for your avionics needs, then keep needling the startups. That's the way Microsoft works and why we barely have a choice in the computer marketplace at this point.

I am rooting for alternatives to everything...as a pilot, I'll take all the options I can get, in the air and on the ground. What Paul needs to know is, there are a bunch, perhaps thousands of Mooney aircraft out there, and I'll wager a good potential market share of private owners, who would be elated to find an affordable, digital autopilot with everything built into one unit, instead of the " oh wait, you have to buy this, this, this and that thing for it to function".

 

So pay the big man his 25k if that's what you think...but I prefer virtually the same thing for half or less and this might be just be what the doctor ordered. Don't forget, these autopilots have been used successfully in the experimental category for almost two decades. So, I continue to look forward to the replacement of my dated autopilot and the sooner the better. Please don't think of me a tightwad, have already invested over 70k on top of initial acquisition price in 4 yrs...

This is my ship...there are many like it, but this one is mine...or something like that

[Navi]

1 hour ago, Sandman993 said:

I can't access the link without registering with piper forum...just not that interested in p planes for the most part and besides...it's like riding a moped, they might be fun, but you don't want anyone to see you doing it!

I do however remember in the conversation, something about Piper being a real gem to install stuff in the tail...anyway, if you want to be dominated by one powerful avionics company (I don't) and left with, but one choice for your avionics needs, then keep needling the startups. That's the way Microsoft works and why we barely have a choice in the computer marketplace at this point.

I am rooting for alternatives to everything...as a pilot, I'll take all the options I can get, in the air and on the ground. What Paul needs to know is, there are a bunch, perhaps thousands of Mooney aircraft out there, and I'll wager a good potential market share of private owners, who would be elated to find an affordable, digital autopilot with everything built into one unit, instead of the " oh wait, you have to buy this, this, this and that thing for it to function".

 

So pay the big man his 25k if that's what you think...but I prefer virtually the same thing for half or less and this might be just be what the doctor ordered. Don't forget, these autopilots have been used successfully in the experimental category for almost two decades. So, I continue to look forward to the replacement of my dated autopilot and the sooner the better. Please don't think of me a tightwad, have already invested over 70k on top of initial acquisition price in 4 yrs...

This is my ship...there are many like it, but this one is mine...or something like that

 

To your comments..

I think you can read the forum without registering.. like this one..  Register to post etc.

Any aircraft is a bear to install stuff in the tail, and the Mooney design is worse than most.. but one manufacturer has chosen to..

My choice was between the Trio and the TruTrak, I don't have the budget for the Garmin or others. But, I , also, have invested significantly in my aircraft since acquisition..

Trio/STC Group know there is a market out there.. but... when the business plan includes the Mooney market study starting on Sat Evening and ending early Monday Afternoon...

I suspect most late model Mooneys will end up with the Garmin, but the other (majority)  will be candidates for the lower cost  options..

Ignore the Piper stuff in the thread. It is however,  an education in the issues surrounding getting STCs, marketing and engineering, and will give you a lot of essential info if you are going to spend hard earned dollars on an Autopilot. It is also an insight into what is happening in this market now.

The Piper and Cessna guys have gone before you. Lessons were learned, some were hard lessons.  The information is available if you choose to access it.

Sandman   >>Don't forget, these autopilots have been used successfully in the experimental category for almost two decades. So, I continue to look forward to the replacement of my dated autopilot and the sooner the better

I agree completely, and I have been flying one since April 2018. Love it. Totally impressed...  (!)

Nav

Edited January 11, 2019 by Navi

[jazztheglass]

On 1/7/2019 at 2:33 PM, aviatoreb said:

Everyone I need 40 people to send me $500 each over the weekend and don't ask any questions or discuss anything.  We are that good.  Just send me money.  

now that's funny!